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Lol. What tosh.

I love this thread. It's one of those classic Heresy Online threads where all the SW players come out to plaay-yayyyy.....


SW Long Fangs are like bacon covered in pure melted cheese.

They aren't OP, so it doesn't bother me much. However, if I bother to use a forum, I wouldn't just sit back listen to chatter about the split fire ruling being reasonable without protest. It's an utter load of balls.

By 'reasonable' I mean that there is no reason for them to have that rule over other SM veterans. Or just over other SM's at all, really. I do not mean that they break the game or are OP. They are just..... an SW aggrandising stilton-fest.
 

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I feel, after reading some of these posts, that some people are down-playing the effectiveness of Long Fangs.

They are pretty damn good, and whenever I meet SW players they spam the shit out of them (and amongst those I play against, we generally agree that they are so worth the points costs that it'd be foolish not to make the investment).
 

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and we feel, after reading your posts, that you are just a hater against space wolves, since you have never taken the time to actually read the passage of fire control, from the SW codex. and that you have decided to join in with the OP in the hate rant against the Space Wolves just for the Dex being a top tier Codex.

we know they are a top tier codex, we know they are awsome, you can go away now.
 

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No hate against the SW. Only against the tosh coming from the players.

It's not like the other codices don't have units just as ridiculous. As a BA player, I know the dex is full of them. SW aren't special in that regard.

All I see in this thread is an OP identifying one such unit, and me agreeing with it. SW lovers then get defensive about it for some reason (no idea why).

Now, since we don't have the same opinion, you say I should go away. How childish.

Let's take a look at the argument:

Space marines. Genetically modified super-human warriors, all with potentially decades (or longer) of experience across hundreds of battles. They can't split fire (read as 'they can't choose their own targets individually). But if we paint them grey and give them long beards, THEN they can choose their targets. All the experience of the other space marines - that doesn't count. The extra experience of the grey ones with beards - that does count.

Sound reasonable?

Absolutely not.

With regard to 'top-tier': This, for me, has never been about power level of the unit. You seem to INSIST that I'm arguing that they are OP, or have too much power. I am not. I do not care about the power level of the unit.
 

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Are Long Fangs really good.....yes
Are they Broken.....NO

and it does make sense that they are better then Dev squads fluff wise because they are years maybe even Hundreds of years older then the members of normal SM Dev squads thus they have more tactical knowledge and more experience to put it to use. Your not simply "painting long beards" on a Dev Squad....they have earned those beards over hundreds of years of war.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
hah, ok clearly people aren't reading posts properly.

I don't have a problem with the split fire rule itself, I think it's great I dont get why the super soldier's of the imperium can't do it anyway when they could in 2nd (I know 2nd it's mental but hey, lets see what 6th brings us).

My point is that an assault army, and don't sugar coat it, something that is designed to seek out and chop up stuff with multiple attacks and then deal as much hurt out again when the enemy try and fight back is an assault army.
My point is that the long fangs, grey hunters and everything else are cheaper than standard marines but are better in every way, how can that make sense? yeah there may be units out there better than them, there may be stuff more worth while then them, but those things cost a shit tonne of points and make sense of why they cost that much.

and people can't say that not splitting fire is not worth-while, have two-three lascannons and two plasma cannons in the unit and you have more fire power than an predator and only cost a little bit more, then unlike that predator can fire the lascannons and one target, having a good chance to take it out, and then fire the two plasmas at a unit of heavy infantry, with a high chance of dealing some major damage, how can that not be good?

and as for the Eldar, again I only really mentioned them because that's what I'm using in the game, but even this far into 5th Ed, and some armies being better and what not... I still really like them, they are a good solid army and can hold their own well enough. I would like to see some freshness in them, some new rules, some rules revised etc. But you know, that's more of a wait and see period, until them I'm more than happy to play with them no matter what BA, SW, DE, GK or IG throw at us, I'm happy to take it and dish it back.
 

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go read the Fire Control Entry then say its unreasonable. better yet, go read one of my earlier posts where I tell you exactly why they have fire control, and say its unreasonable. fact is, its not unreasonable with the designs of this game, because the fluff and the reasoning is there, just some people obviously dont want to accept it.
 

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"the leaders of long fang packs have trained and fought with the other members of his pack for decades or even centuries. This allows them to direct the Squad's firepower quickly and efficiently"

"The oldest Long Fang of the pack is entrusted with Target selection and directs his brethren's fire where it will do the most good. These Squad leaders can anticipate the flow of battle with uncanny prescience, enabling their men to function more efficiently than a conventional devastator squad"
Pg 28 C:SW

Long fangs, unlike normal devastators, are the oldest of the old in the space wolves. It makes sense that they get a different rule to the BS 5 shite in the other marine codices. Split fire is a cool rule, suits the long fangs based on their fluff
 

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And it wouldn't suit Sternguard - *a pure shooty unit* - just as much?

I'm still not seeing any reason why the LF would have this rule over all other SM units.

The last part of the sentence is the important one. If you stop reading at 'rule', then the proposition is entirely different.
 

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Discussion Starter #51 (Edited)
oh god, I don't think I have control of this thread anymore :shok::russianroulette:

alright, people can stop hate bashing or whatever, as I've mentioned I dont hate wolves, I dont think their rules are broken... it's just that I started with marines back in the day I know alot of their rules and everything else, but since my friend started playing the Wolves it is the first time I have taken a real close look at the dex (know thy enemy and what not) and again rules or fluff wise they may not be broken, they may be fine and it may suit the way they are... I just think that for how good they are they are too cheap points wise...

Forget about Long Fangs for a second and lets look at the very core units. a full tactical squad and it's bare basics with 10 men cost 170 points with SM rules and so on... now a full Grey hunter pack of 10 GHs at bare basics cost 150 with SM rules AND more, how does that make sense? the over-all better unit costs better than the thing it was based upon... that is more, over-all discussion here, and thats what makes me go :mad:

on a complete off subject and side note I find it funny that I post a normal topic about something and it most likely makes 3 pages in a fortnight if that... I post a topic arguing against Space Wolves and it makes 6 pages in less than a day, hah... again not hate bashing against anything or anyone, I just find it amusing.
 

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I think the quotes from the codex that i just posted perfectly explain why they have the rule.
 

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I think the quotes from the codex that i just posted perfectly explain why they have the rule.
That doesn't answer the question.

It explains why they would have the rule. It doesn't explain why they would have the rule over all other SM units in the entire game.

It makes no sense.
 

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Ok, on the sternguard vs long fang thing, last I checked sternguard are drawn from all over the chapter and so might be mere aquaintences while long fangs have known each other for centuries increasing their internal coordination and allowing them to pull off crazy stuff.
 

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hah, ok clearly people aren't reading posts properly.

I don't have a problem with the split fire rule itself, I think it's great I dont get why the super soldier's of the imperium can't do it anyway when they could in 2nd (I know 2nd it's mental but hey, lets see what 6th brings us).

My point is that an assault army, and don't sugar coat it, something that is designed to seek out and chop up stuff with multiple attacks and then deal as much hurt out again when the enemy try and fight back is an assault army.
My point is that the long fangs, grey hunters and everything else are cheaper than standard marines but are better in every way, how can that make sense? yeah there may be units out there better than them, there may be stuff more worth while then them, but those things cost a shit tonne of points and make sense of why they cost that much.
Clearly you miss the fact that SW's are giving up staples like Combat Tactics ---> Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, hammernators and the like and instead the bulk of the work is being carried by 1 specific group; namely the Grey Hunters.

All other loyalist marines can combine more flexible units like a Tactical Squad's supporting fire to a charge of assault Termies.
SW's get Grey Hunters to do all that because Blood Claws are only WS3, their termies cost an arm and a leg and their HQ's work out to be more costly for the same build other chapters get as standard.

Does this make SW's weaker? No, it makes them into a totally different animal compared to the other loyalist chapters! SW's get discounts on their staple unit because they lack the sheer flexibility that Space Marines in general are known for. SW's also get special deals like the Long Fang's split fire ability because it's fluffy and because they lack the basic SM rules like Combat Squads that give that exact same abilty to every other smurf army!

Space Wolves are simply the Eldar of the loyalist chapters; an army of specialists who are *really* good at their given role, but mediocre to crap at anything else.

and people can't say that not splitting fire is not worth-while, have two-three lascannons and two plasma cannons in the unit and you have more fire power than an predator and only cost a little bit more, then unlike that predator can fire the lascannons and one target, having a good chance to take it out, and then fire the two plasmas at a unit of heavy infantry, with a high chance of dealing some major damage, how can that not be good?
Clearly, you've never;
a) played against a 10 man devastator squad that uses combat squads and effectively does the same damn thing!

b) are ignoring the fact that killing the squad leader removes the ability altogether!

c) when that squad leader dies, (typically very quickly so as to protect the heavy guns), you can now be facing a very imbalanced squad that will waste expensive weapons that aren't suited to the target the squad is shooting.
(ie: in your 3x Las/2x Plas example, those plasma cannons are pretty poop vs vehicles, while the lascannons are over-costed overkill vs almost any squad the plasmas might target!)
 

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Ok, on the sternguard vs long fang thing, last I checked sternguard are drawn from all over the chapter and so might be mere aquaintences while long fangs have known each other for centuries increasing their internal coordination and allowing them to pull off crazy stuff.
Okay, a fair start. So let's look at that for a moment:

"mere aquaintences"

Not impossible, but I find it unlikely. If a space marine is a veteran, serving in a squad of other veterans, then they have likely all been in the chapter for, quite possibly, centuries. I strongly doubt that in hundreds of years, they wouldn't know the other veterans pretty well. Hundreds of years. Think about that phrase for a moment. Note there are only 100 space marines in a first company (typically the veterans). If I gave you only one hundred years to get to know 100 people, you wouldn't have a hard time.

"crazy stuff"

Well, let's slow down a little. The rule isn't that they're allowed to run all the way across the battlefied, hotwire Eldar hover vehicles, and then go kamikaze. They are simply allowed to fire at different targets. Hardly crazy. If we take Sternguard as an example, they are put together to form a shooting unit. A unit made of veterans, too. Why wouldn't they be allowed to shoot at different targets, exactly? Is there a specific reason why any unit such as that, would not be allowed to do so, where SW would?

I doubt it. The codex was simply written in isolation from the others (as ALL codices are), and that's why there is a single unit able to split fire across all space marines.

It's exactly the same reason why BA can deep strike a land raider.

Are BA the only ones with a Thunderhawk vehicle transporter? No. Was their codex written in isolation from the others? Yes. Does this make the rule seem a tad ridiculous, considering it basically says 'well, if you paint it red, you can deep strike it. If not, you can't'? Yes.

Does exactly the same principle apply to the SW long fangs? Yes.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
Clearly you miss the fact that SW's are giving up staples like Combat Tactics ---> Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, hammernators and the like and instead the bulk of the work is being carried by 1 specific group; namely the Grey Hunters.

All other loyalist marines can combine more flexible units like a Tactical Squad's supporting fire to a charge of assault Termies.
SW's get Grey Hunters to do all that because Blood Claws are only WS3, their termies cost an arm and a leg and their HQ's work out to be more costly for the same build other chapters get as standard.

Does this make SW's weaker? No, it makes them into a totally different animal compared to the other loyalist chapters! SW's get discounts on their staple unit because they lack the sheer flexibility that Space Marines in general are known for. SW's also get special deals like the Long Fang's split fire ability because it's fluffy and because they lack the basic SM rules like Combat Squads that give that exact same abilty to every other smurf army!

Space Wolves are simply the Eldar of the loyalist chapters; an army of specialists who are *really* good at their given role, but mediocre to crap at anything else.
All right I see your point that they don't get things like combat squads or combat tactics, fair enough.. but if anyone wanted to claim fluff on it then Wolves would never automatically fail a morale check anyway, it's not in their nature so in it's place they get an additional +2 attacks for every first round of every assault phase no matter what, and be cheaper, 'cause somehow that balances it out. if we were to throw the codex astartes under the bus for a minute and say that fluff wise they fight like the original legions, then let's compared them to a standard chaos marine. they both get bolt pistol and CC weapon but, oh wait... chaos don't have Acute Sense, Counter-attack or ATSKNF but cost the same points as a Grey hunter? alright 'cause that makes sense.

Clearly, you've never;
a) played against a 10 man devastator squad that uses combat squads and effectively does the same damn thing!

b) are ignoring the fact that killing the squad leader removes the ability altogether!

c) when that squad leader dies, (typically very quickly so as to protect the heavy guns), you can now be facing a very imbalanced squad that will waste expensive weapons that aren't suited to the target the squad is shooting.
(ie: in your 3x Las/2x Plas example, those plasma cannons are pretty poop vs vehicles, while the lascannons are over-costed overkill vs almost any squad the plasmas might target!)
and as for Devastators' in combat squads being just as good I'm going to have to pull you up on that as being so, so wrong...

a) combat squads only work if you have TEN-MAN squads, you can't take a six-man squad and split it so straight away those ten devastator's cost more.

b) if you were to split them into two five-man squads they would only have two heavy weapons in, and still not be able to split their fire or counter-attack or anything else, sure they would have a few spare marines to take shots, but then your spending 16 points on fodder, so again Long fangs still end up cheaper.

so again my arguement is, point for point the Wolves still outmatch other chapters, legions, etc. take rules away, add rules whatever.. I don't think giving up combat squads (which makes you pay for points) and combat tactics is worth being able to split fire and counter attack.
 

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I find it funny how much hate the split fire aspect is getting, the guy that gives this ability to my longfangs is always the first to die. I find it much much more effective to shoot everything at one target. As to having it over other units in other codexes..... I would trade it for cheap effective atkbikes, sternguard, and other assorted fun and games from other codexs in a heartbeat.
 

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The Long Fangs are bonded like pure blood brothers, they have fought together from their initiation the the chapter right through to their veteranship. Each pack is a self contained fighting force. Casualties in space wolf packs are not replaced. It is why blood claw packs are larger than GH packs, and why GH packs are larger than long fang packs. The long fangs fight are intuitive to each other in a way that Veterans drawn from separate squads can not be
 

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There is a difference between knowing someone at work and living with them 24/7. Any time there is a normal vet he probably spent about half his career in his original company and then spends only about half of his time with his new squad mates. So no matter what a long fang has spent at least 4 times as much time in contact with his squad as a normal vet. And regular vets CAN split there fire they just have to be divided into 2 groups (combat squads) long fangs just have the coordination to do this without being split into different fire teams beforehand.

And blood angels can deep strike a LR because they specifically train dedicated pilots to drop them from thunderhawks into a battle in such a way that they are unlikely to be damaged. Not because they are painted red. And they have stormravens because they spend more time maintaining a significant force of them rather than jusrt bringing them out occasionally. (you can take units from another codex in apoc games so yes others have access to them.)
 
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