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Discussion Starter #21
You clearly don't understand SW if you think they are an assault army. The army plays like the fluff says it should. Most armies are heavy on infantry: fluffy. Each unit can function on its own: fluffy. The veterans have the ability to think independently and split their fire: fluffy.

The army plays like a pack of wolves, you weaken the enemy with the long fangs then the grey hunters go in for the kill.

SW are not overpowered. The codex is fantastic, one of the best GW codices available and it has survived the test of time, still maintaining its ability to be top tier. Eldar have an older codex designed for another edition, naturally they don't have some more recent special abilities.

GK stand up to Wolves very well, as does ,*shudder*, venom spam or wych cult DE, Necrons and BA. All 5th ed codices. The problem is not with the wolf codex, it is with the Eldar codex. Play tactically soundly and you will beat most SW players, especially with Eldar speed. Go full reserve and gypsy his objectives in later turns, surefire way to win. Failing that, take outflanking war walkers, because scatter lasers put the pain on long fangs
my problem isn't with them going up against Eldar, like I said earlier take the Xeno races out of the equation I'm comparing them to other Space Marines Chapters, even the ones that don't follow the Codex astartes like the Space Wolves don't, if the Long Fangs can think for themselves and do what they want because of their ages and knowledge, why can't other Veterans marines who are just as old do it? Dante even he's the oldest marine alive, but if he joins a unit he can't split his fire from them, so that argument can't hold.

and since I started playing in 3rd, if X unit cost 15 points and was the basic unit but then Y unit had a load of upgrades and cost the same amount of points, I would call that slightly overpowered. a single Tactical marine costs 16 points but a single Grey Hunter with all it's bonuses costs 15 points. how can that not be overpowered? they can have 2 HQ choices for every 1 HQ slot, OP? like I said originally my main claim was with the long fangs having all those benifit's and cost cheaper than a normal tactical marine, fine they must take a heavy weapon but thats just more power on top.

they are an original legion so have them better than the bog standard marine sure, but have their points adjust accordingly, the blood angles normal tactical marine is just a bit better than a bog standard one and costs like 4 points more, so how does that make sense?
 

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its been said a few times now, the reason is basically to make the army unique over other armies.

if you want a fluff reason, its been said too, that the SW use their long fangs for SUPPORT supressive fire and Anti Tank to pop transports so their grey hunters / Blood claws can go in for the kill. The SW dex works very much like a pack of wolves, each unit has a purpose and its not always apparent. and trust me when I say this, Splitting fire, is rarely actually useful without being in a very specific situation that requires the split fire mechanic, which lets face it, never exists.
 

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Ancient Relic
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I have only ever split fire against venom spam. Usually i fire all 15 rockets that the same target, i like to completely obliterate 1 thing at a time. once that dies, i move to the next one. Split fire ir only really useful against light, and i mean very light, armour
 

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I have only ever split fire against venom spam. Usually i fire all 15 rockets that the same target, i like to completely obliterate 1 thing at a time. once that dies, i move to the next one. Split fire ir only really useful against light, and i mean very light, armour
when your using rockets, yup
 

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Discussion Starter #25
all right fair enough, I see peoples points about them being good at what they do, about them being fluff and wolfie and what not. reason why I've carried on this discussion is cause people are saying that a unit that is cheaper but far more better than it's base line equal is fair and not overpowered, now no one can say that it makes sense, when every other SM chapter that has better stuff than the base line has to pay an arm and a leg to field that stuff.

like in this game that brought up my discussion I countered the armour and such with high AP weapons, I'm gonna take on the counter-attack with high Init units (Banshees) but yeah we'll see how the dice fall for me.

my over-all discussion is about the quality and power of units that point for point are too cheap for how powerful they are, that's why they've become a top tier army, because model for model they can match the other top tier armies and do it cheaper.
 

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I hardly ever give out rep.

The OP gained as much rep as I could give in one dishing.

Tired of SW fanboys claiming that Long Fangs are fair in any way whatsoever. Ridiculous rule. Perhaps the most ridiculous in the game.

Why, exactly, are SW devastator squads better trained than any other Space Marines? It's a load of shit.

It doesn't actually break the game. It's not an instant win button. It's just annoying and totally lame. Just more SW bumming.

People seem to keep coming to the same conclusion when they witness it. Then they get shot down by the horde of SW fanboys. Thankfully, this is why we have rep.
 

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all right fair enough, I see peoples points about them being good at what they do, about them being fluff and wolfie and what not. reason why I've carried on this discussion is cause people are saying that a unit that is cheaper but far more better than it's base line equal is fair and not overpowered, now no one can say that it makes sense, when every other SM chapter that has better stuff than the base line has to pay an arm and a leg to field that stuff.
Define "base line"

cuz have you EVER seen SW assault terminators? probably not, why? because SW pay an arm and a leg for them over their SM cousins purely due to being allowed more choices.

Long Fangs are not 'superior' to the SM devistator squads really, since you can add more units to the Dev squads as fodder, which, in itsself makes them better then long fangs since every time you the long fangs take a wound, they lose a heavy weapon, period.
 

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I hardly ever give out rep.

The OP gained as much rep as I could give in one dishing.

Tired of SW fanboys claiming that Long Fangs are fair in any way whatsoever. Ridiculous rule. Perhaps the most ridiculous in the game.

Why, exactly, are SW devastator squads better trained than any other Space Marines? It's a load of shit.

It doesn't actually break the game. It's not an instant win button. It's just annoying and totally lame. Just more SW bumming.

People seem to keep coming to the same conclusion when they witness it. Then they get shot down by the horde of SW fanboys. Thankfully, this is why we have rep.
and you hating on the SW as much as you are makes me hate that they removed the - rep button, there is nothing broken about Long fangs being able to split fire, it has too many down falls to even be thought about being used in the first place. if this was about our awsome grey hunters, I wouldnt have as much room to counter you with, but im sorry, but Long Fangs really are really not OP, and you said it yourself, its not breaking the game in any case, and its not an instant win button. but its annoying, for the SW player, to be tempted with a split fire ability that when used almost hinders us more times then helps us!
 

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Long Fangs are not 'superior' to the SM devistator squads really, since you can add more units to the Dev squads as fodder, which, in itsself makes them better then long fangs since every time you the long fangs take a wound, they lose a heavy weapon, period.
That's a nice thing to say, and quite easy, but it's not really true. The ability to split fire is not a slight advantage over a standard Devastator squad, it's a huge one.
 

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and you hating on the SW as much as you are makes me hate that they removed the - rep button, there is nothing broken about Long fangs being able to split fire, it has too many down falls to even be thought about being used in the first place. if this was about our awsome grey hunters, I wouldnt have as much room to counter you with, but im sorry, but Long Fangs really are really not OP, and you said it yourself, its not breaking the game in any case, and its not an instant win button. but its annoying, for the SW player, to be tempted with a split fire ability that when used almost hinders us more times then helps us!
You didn't read my post at all, did you. Standard.

I never said they were OP, and I actually stated that they did not break anything. You should re-read the post again and then look at your reply to it.
 

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Rattlehead
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You can add more guys to a Devastator squad, yes, but they still cost points. But on the other hand, yes, Wolves DO get Assault Terminators, but they cost points. 4 HQs? How many points is THAT going to cost you?

Midnight
 

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I don't see how elder a sub standard right now!
90pt gets you T8, W4, S10, which the only reliable way I've found to kill one happens to with wasting 4turns pinking it in the head with a railgun, thus leaving me with no AT support!(wraith lord)
Also for 35pt you get T6, S8, W2 with instant death causing weapons!(wraith guard)
Or for 35pt as well, they get units with 2 S5 AP3 48" range shots!(dark reapers)
There dire avengers are no mean feat either with there 3 shot pulse rifles!
Also rangers rending on 5&6s TO HIT AND TO WOUND! with a 2+ cover save to boot!
Don't diss the eldar, there one of my most feared armies!
Avatars
 

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You didn't read my post at all, did you. Standard.

I never said they were OP, and I actually stated that they did not break anything. You should re-read the post again and then look at your reply to it.
you didnt 'say' it, but your attitude towards it definately implied it, go re-read your own words, OP is complaining about the pure fact we have this ability, you agree with the OP and give him major praise for ranting about the fact we have an ability we have had since, at least, the third edition SW dex. there is nothing new about the fact long fangs split fire in 5th, we have had that ability since Third edition atleast, but for some reason that makes the Long fangs superior.
 

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you didnt 'say' it, but your attitude towards it definately implied it, go re-read your own words, OP is complaining about the pure fact we have this ability, you agree with the OP and give him major praise for ranting about the fact we have an ability we have had since, at least, the third edition SW dex. there is nothing new about the fact long fangs split fire in 5th, we have had that ability since Third edition atleast, but for some reason that makes the Long fangs superior.
Actually, one of the major points in the OP's rant was that it was a a very nice bonus which not only was free, but actually saved points. As both GH and LF are better (lots of useful choices and rules) AND they are cheaper than the standard marine equivilants.

I don't think they are OP as such, and I know that the vanilla SM dex is getting dated, but the fact that everyone and their mom seems to include 15 LF in their wolfie army does suggest that they aren't just a "fine and dandy fluff" choice.

At least, that is my observation. But then again, what do I know? I don't play them, and I haven't played much against them.
 

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I'm not sure the fact that the rule has always been there makes it any more reasonable.

It's as if normal Space Marines in Devastator squads aren't the veterans of hundreds and hundreds of battles. For some reason, it's only true for SW..... Yeah, right....

It's just plain silly.

It's not that OP. Long Fangs are squsihy enough. If we want to talk OP, let's turn our faces towards Arjac and a squad of bad boys he can bring with him...
 

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Rattlehead
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Re-read the Space Marines Codex. Most Devastators are just one promotion up from Scouts. All Space Marines from Codex Chapters serve in the Devastators, then the Assault Marines, then the Tacticals.

Midnight
 

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I don't see how elder a OPed right now!
90pt gets you T8, W4, S10, which the only reliable way I've found to kill one happens to with wasting 4turns pinking it in the head with a railgun, thus leaving me with no AT support!(wraith lord)
Also for 35pt you get T6, S8, W2 with instant death causing weapons!(wraith guard)
Or for 35pt as well, they get units with 2 S5 AP3 48" range shots!(dark reapers)
There dire avengers are no mean feat either with there 3 shot pulse rifles!
Also rangers rending on 5&6s TO HIT AND TO WOUND! with a 2+ cover save to boot!
Don't diss the eldar, there one of my most feared armies!
Avatars
You may want to double check your stats there.
W3 on WL

T6 S5 W1 on wraithguard with a 12' range 1 shot gun that inflicts ID one out of every 9 shots along with being so slow they hardly have a chance in heck of getting in range so the enemy can just avoid them.

Dire avengers have S4 guns and 3 shots means you can't fire next turn.

Dark reapers get blown away incredibly fast unless they are in restricted LoS which restricts their usefulness.

You are fighting a newer dex than yours and feeling pain because of that. Eldar are often fighting newer dexes than they are and feeling the same pain.
 

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I am aware of that, which makes me feel I wasn't clear:

NO space marines from the standard dex, veterans or otherwise, can split fire.

But somehow SW can.

Silly. Very silly.
 

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I am aware of that, which makes me feel I wasn't clear:

NO space marines from the standard dex, veterans or otherwise, can split fire.

But somehow SW can.

Silly. Very silly.
other space marine Vets are built for a very different purpose, and how long do you think a Squad of vetrans actually have been working together for as one unit would be?

Space wolves, unlike other SM chapters, do NOT split their groups up. the "long fangs" are a group of warriors who have been grouped since they were Blood claws, the leader of that group has only changed if the old leader died. the Space wolf squads are literally a small group of warriors who spend every second of every day together, even more so then other SM chapters, they Either prove themselves worthy, or die, together. there are only two exceptions to this, Wolf Guard, and Scouts. Wolf guard are exceptional warriors who have proven themselves worthy to their wolf lord, and Scouts are lone wolf mentalities who dont work well in their groups, so they are moved to the scouts to be with like minded people to scout and do things their own way.
 

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Ancient Relic
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I may come across as harsh here, but i don't give a monkey's fuck. Good players can deal with long fangs, that is a cold hard fact. They are a fragile unit. Shoot them and they die. Tie them up in assault. There are a myriad of ways to kill them or tie them up, So stop bitching, get off the computer and play the damn game.
 
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