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Discussion Starter #1
My two friends and I are playing a game at the moment, Eldar vs. Space Wolves vs. Grey Knights and at 1500 points bar one unit each they both have full Termie armies D=, but anyway.

Forget about the Eldar being better shooters (I have shadow spectres in the army) or whatever, and I can live with the fact that Space Wolves have counter-attack, it makes sense that's the way they are... but why, oh why are the Long Fang's able to split their fire when they are lead by a Pack leader? no leadership test, nothing... they can just willing split their fire no problem.

nothing else in the game can do it, Eldar and Tau being the most advanced races = nope
Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors being specialists at Siege tactics = nope
Iron hands being specialists in advanced bionics and optics = nope
... Not even Vehicle squadrons can split their fire... so why, oh why can Long Fangs :ireful2:

/end rant...

LoA
 

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Angel Sanguine
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I don't understand what you are ranting about. Do you mean split fire is overpowered, or are you angry because the veterans of a space wolf company can do something your aspect warriors can't?
A farseer can cast fortune, my rune priest can't. Should I be angry about that?
 

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Rules don't often make sense, they are there to establish unique styles of play and use. For instance no other walker in the game has the ability to cause 10+ wounds on infantry, but BA blood talon dreads can. Necrons get up after getting hit by ap1 str10 shots, no other army can do that either. Hell unlike long fangs the entire DE army invalidates every MC build in the game as having a 100 point unit kill a 200pt MC in one round of poison shooting is a hell lot worse then long fangs splitting fire.

Personally I do find the new marine armies a hell lot more competative then the old crap marines who are so generalized that even older books like CSM, Eldar, Tau can beat them, but in all honesty SW, BA and the like need little extra's as almost every army can do great anti MeQ these days.

Face it Eldar/Tau are now ancient codecies, and it will only get worse for the armies as they wait another 1-2 years for a update.
 

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Still can't fault him for wanting to rant, at this point eldar are getting real long in the tooth as they reach the very back end of the cycle.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
more that the Long Fangs are one of the two only units (that I know of) that can split their fire, the other being Pink horrors with we are legion but they aren't firing STR 9 weapons AND have counter-attack.

I just see it as there are other units or armies that would have that type of ability more than the Space Wolves, seeing how they are meant to be a assault army. not saying Eldar should get it or whatever.

It's mainly the fact that a space marine assault army has the ability that no other (fluff-wise) more fitting chapters can do.

To be honest I kind of feel sorry for Matt Ward for all the Hate bashing that he got for the BAs and GKs, as far as I know the SW codex was written before both them (I might be wrong) and normally I really like Phil kelly's stuff, most of his other stuff are powerful but still balanced with other armies, it just seems like he went nutty for the space Vikings. Even most of the guys at my local GW agree, and a number of them have SW armies.

At Luke and B&K, we're still playing atm, they did knock out my fire prism's weapon (which for revenge is now tank shocking them for poops and giggles) but in the same turn was also able to land too Plasma cannon blasts on my pathfinders (cover saved most of them) but I just found it nutty cause out of every army I didn't expect the Space wolves to have that ability on top of everything else they have and for the general cheap cost of the units.

The games still going good, my Shadow Spectres and Dire avengers did well against Logan and his termie buddy's but the next turn I'm sending my banshees into Njal and his Termie buddies on the otherside of the battlefield, so have to wait and see.
 

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Just to clarify. Tau can split fire. Crisis suits, Firewarriors, Pathfinders, Stealth suits, Hammerhead/Devilfish/Skyray, and even Broadsides. It's a cheap upgrade that any squad can take.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Just to clarify. Tau can split fire. Crisis suits, Firewarriors, Pathfinders, Stealth suits, Hammerhead/Devilfish/Skyray, and even Broadsides. It's a cheap upgrade that any squad can take.
ah, forgot about the targeting array, I believe it's called... thought the crisis suit's are the only ones that can get that?

And before anyone thinks, I'm not actually trying to play the hate game on the Space Wolves, it's more of confusion on how come they pretty much have most abilites and close to it that other armies have (2 HQs per 1 Choice, good assault units, split fire, etc.) it's like they have everything, everyone else has, or it seems like it.
 

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Angel Sanguine
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I just see it as there are other units or armies that would have that type of ability more than the Space Wolves, seeing how they are meant to be a assault army.
Why do people still think they are ment to be an assault army? Even the SW books would support shooting builds. Of all the chapters they are the ones who would do anything to win, so if shooting is good in the game, then they would.
Not to mention that the "counterattack" rule makes it seem that the wolves want to get assaulted, not to assault.

Also, long fangs being superiour isn't that hard to believe when you relise they are the most veteran fighters of their respective companies.... You could actually compare them to stern/van veterans of other chapters.
 

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Fire dragon them, see how their split fire likes close up face-melta.

I would say that against Eldar they are a pretty high priority threat to eliminate, just be thankful that you are playing an army that is pretty darn good at eliminating no1 threats.
 

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as Tossidin said, SW are designed more like SM to be all rounders, rather then an "assault" army.

their new recruits, the blood claws, are blood hungery and eager to prove themselves, making them excellent assault troops.

Grey hunters are abit more seasoned and still have assault tendancies but work as all rounders.

Long fangs are seasoned vets that stick together and find themselves enjoying the support role from long range, being some of the most vetran of all the SW forces, for more up and personal vetrans, those who have that lone wolf mindset but havnt become the last standing survivor of their pack, tend to become the SW scouts, which sneak up and kill their enemies, or thunder wolf Cav, since they tamed a thunder wolf to ride into battle on.
 

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The item for Tau is the Target lock. It's a Hardwired item, so just about anything can take it. Though only the Firewarrior/Pathfinder leader can take one in a squad. Fairgame for any other Tau unit though.
 

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Don't forget that all shooting must be declared before it is rolled; i.e. all targets must be identified before any dice are rolled. So the Long Fangs might fail to achieve anything because they split their fire and didn't manage enough hits to do anything.
 

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Its their long beards that let them do it, everyone knows a long beard means you can do what every you want. " It's the biggest!"
 

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Its their long beards that let them do it, everyone knows a long beard means you can do what every you want. " It's the biggest!"
stop trying to use Ork logic with wolves. two different armies
 

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Grandma what big teeth you have.
Seriously this is because they are old, they have most likly been around centuries and so with a squad leader alive can split the fire due to discipline. They have everything backwards compared to most chapters. Long Fangs and scouts are older and not newer/not yet created Space Marines like other chapters. The fact that they like CC does not mean they have crappy shooting abilities.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Fair points, but if we take the Xeno races out of the equation for a minute and just focus on Space marines (Chapter or Legion). When my friend pointed out that CSM get a CCW and a BP for most units I thought alright that's pretty cool, their standard unit don't have stuff like 'ATSKNF' but can have more men, but they don't have counter-attack either.

my main notch about it all is that whether being assaulted or assaulting most SW units get 3 attacks most of the time, base 1 +1 for 'assaulting' and +1 for a pistol and CCW weapon combo. how can they not be seen as an assault themed army?

and if they are meant to be a shooting type army, why have that much assault power? and if the Long fangs are meant to be the equal to other Chapters Veterans, out of the roughly 1000 chapters in the galaxy, how is it that only the SW Vets have that ability to split fire? if the SW are meant to be at base an all-rounder army like the other SM chapters?
 

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Fair points, but if we take the Xeno races out of the equation for a minute and just focus on Space marines (Chapter or Legion). When my friend pointed out that CSM get a CCW and a BP for most units I thought alright that's pretty cool, their standard unit don't have stuff like 'ATSKNF' but can have more men, but they don't have counter-attack either.

my main notch about it all is that whether being assaulted or assaulting most SW units get 3 attacks most of the time, base 1 +1 for 'assaulting' and +1 for a pistol and CCW weapon combo. how can they not be seen as an assault themed army?

and if they are meant to be a shooting type army, why have that much assault power? and if the Long fangs are meant to be the equal to other Chapters Veterans, out of the roughly 1000 chapters in the galaxy, how is it that only the SW Vets have that ability to split fire? if the SW are meant to be at base an all-rounder army like the other SM chapters?
Space Wolves are not an assault or shooting army - they're a Loyalist chapter that still fights in a similar manner to the Legions of old.
They have the perks of being loyalist marines, (atsknf, imperial tech, etc...), but their playstyle is very much akin to how a Chaos Space marine army plays. That is, they're a middle ground to 'in your face' army.

The other big chapters take the roles of assaulty or shooty;
- BA's = assaulty with a mix of mechanised shooting
- Templars = all-out assaulty
- DA's = shooty with some capable assaulty bitz.



Long Fangs get to split their firepower because they're the veterans, the oldest dudes in the company, sometimes even being much, much older than their freakin Wolf Lord!

Besides, you do realise that all other marines aside from Templars do the same thing, only better right?! You know, that little thing called 'combat squads' that effectively means a 10-man squad can shoot different targets but with the added perks of;
a) Not having to declare all their targets at the same time. (due to being completely seperate squads)

b) Hot losing the split fire ability because 1 dude bites the dust.

c) Having ablative wounds protecting their heavy weapons.

d) That most important weapon standing next to Mr.Sergeant getting a +1BS boost from the signum.

Sure Long Fangs are cheaper and pack more heavy weapons, but they come in much smaller squads, lose more per casulty and are only as resiliant as the next marine.

I know I'd much rather pay 200pts and have more survivable heavy weapons than 160 something pts and watch a big gun drop every single time I lose a squad member!
 

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more that the Long Fangs are one of the two only units (that I know of) that can split their fire, the other being Pink horrors with we are legion but they aren't firing STR 9 weapons AND have counter-attack.

I just see it as there are other units or armies that would have that type of ability more than the Space Wolves, seeing how they are meant to be a assault army. not saying Eldar should get it or whatever.

It's mainly the fact that a space marine assault army has the ability that no other (fluff-wise) more fitting chapters can do.

To be honest I kind of feel sorry for Matt Ward for all the Hate bashing that he got for the BAs and GKs, as far as I know the SW codex was written before both them (I might be wrong) and normally I really like Phil kelly's stuff, most of his other stuff are powerful but still balanced with other armies, it just seems like he went nutty for the space Vikings. Even most of the guys at my local GW agree, and a number of them have SW armies.
You clearly don't understand SW if you think they are an assault army. The army plays like the fluff says it should. Most armies are heavy on infantry: fluffy. Each unit can function on its own: fluffy. The veterans have the ability to think independently and split their fire: fluffy.

The army plays like a pack of wolves, you weaken the enemy with the long fangs then the grey hunters go in for the kill.

SW are not overpowered. The codex is fantastic, one of the best GW codices available and it has survived the test of time, still maintaining its ability to be top tier. Eldar have an older codex designed for another edition, naturally they don't have some more recent special abilities.

GK stand up to Wolves very well, as does ,*shudder*, venom spam or wych cult DE, Necrons and BA. All 5th ed codices. The problem is not with the wolf codex, it is with the Eldar codex. Play tactically soundly and you will beat most SW players, especially with Eldar speed. Go full reserve and gypsy his objectives in later turns, surefire way to win. Failing that, take outflanking war walkers, because scatter lasers put the pain on long fangs
 
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