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lol now i don't follow you :p
Oh lordy, we're like a pair of deaf people shouting at each other who eventually realise that they're speaking different languages.

1 - '...as close to the codex as possible aside from their traits...' - I thought you meant you weren't taking the Imperial Fist traits given in Codex SM; what I now think you mean is their use of traits means they aren't following the Codex Astartes (hence, I got the wrong end of the stick).

2 - the '...chapter 46...' justification - the idea that there are a whole bunch of Codex (Astartes, and SM) Chapters with different organisation/fighting styles because they emphasize aspects of the Codex (Astartes) - they like a particular section so much that they read it twice (and ended up with two assault weapons in a tactical squad, for instance) - but put less emphasis on other aspects - they don't like another section (so never read 'How to organise a Drop Pod Assault' for instance).

Hope that's made things clearer, I can feel my life ebbing away in the swirling void of confusion, if it goes on much longer Tzeentch will errupt gibbering out of my (one remaining) eyeball.

 

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Discussion Starter · #23 · (Edited)
Ok the way i see imperial fists is that everything about them is codex organisation wise, they are equipped and structured the same way as guillimen put down int he codex so fluff wise they are codex. Real life wise they only deviate because of emotional or skillful means. Since they are well practiced fighting armoured things they can pick out weak spots easier. Because of their past however they have become very stoic and will not leave the battlefield until they've won or been destroyed, so real life wise they are not codex cause they still use traits, but by definition fluff wise they are codex.

Now i hope you get what i mean lol.

Your point two is correct since they have become so adept at taking down bunkers and vechicles they are crack shots.

Point one however isn't because i still consider them codex in every sense of the way they organise and structure their units and chapter

*headache* :tongue:
 

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It's OK mate, I think we're about as close to understanding each other as we're gonna get this side of telepathy or a universal translator.

Yes. The Imperial Fists are a Codex (Astartes) chapter. They are very very dedicated to the Codex (Astartes). The minor divergences listed in Codex: SM do not in any way mean that they are not a Codex (Astartes) chapter. My demonstration of how a chapter could end up with 'cleanse and purify' and 'die on you feet' (or whatever the 'no Drop Pod' rule is called) was for illustrative purposes only, and was not intended to refer to the Imperial Fists, just the idea of emphasizing some aspects, and not emphasizing as much other aspects, of the Codex Astartes.

 

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Imperial Fists Company Markings

Just to clear this up a bit concerning the IF company markings:

The Insignium Astartes clearly lists most of the common SM chapters and their preference for company markings. Some use shoulder pad trim, others helmet color or stripe, some knee pad markings, chest eagles, and even some have no company designation whatsoever.

The Fists are shown to have red chest eagles and then change their shoulder pad trim to indicate their company just as the Ultramarines do.

Happy painting! :wink:
 

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Well its not often i look into a thread for info and end up wetting myself with laughter but.......these things happen.

Right not wanting to say everyone is wrong about the whole chest eagle thing, but looking in "Insigniun Astartes" it does say Imperial fists shoulder pad rims shows company colour, so the pics in the back of the codex represent 3rd company but you all new that bit anyway. But this does not mean you have to do it that way as it also says "Chapters may have followed the prescriptions of the codex for a period time then developed to some system of their own devising" for me this is a sign for do what the hell you want :biggrin:

If you're collecting marines i suggest getting this book its should be your holy grail, well worth the money and something you'll just keep looking through.

Warpath
 

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im sure that the chest insignia HAS to vary if your staying with the strict rules of the Fists. Ive seen many ppl change the trim to fit the chest eagle.
Then why do GW show Imperial Fists Terminators of the (White) 1st Company with red eagles on their chest? Also the previous and current Ultramarine Veterans are shown with white trim and gold eagles.

On a sidenote look at how for example Apothecaries used to be predominantly painted (white) and how they are often shown now, and always by GW (mostly the Chapter colour/s with some white).

Colour compliance, ie the Word of GW, is somewhat flexible.

Gold on yellow usually looks pretty bad.
On Imperial Fists it looks surprisingly fine. It's understandable folk would be concerned but yeah it really doesn't look bad. It's the same with yellow trim on yellow, there's really nothing wrong with it. 2 Chapters of the Imperial Fists, the Marauders and such are just so after all.
 

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Well, I think I've finally decided to paint up my fists as 3rd Co (to join my Ultramarines and BA for apocalypse games, or just pootle about as a combat patrol on their own), and I think WoT is sticking with 5th, but thanks for the update FrozenOrb.

 

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Yes. The Imperial Fists are a Codex (Astartes) chapter. They are very very dedicated to the Codex (Astartes).
This is a very common misunderstanding of the Imperial Fist and what happened between Rogal Dorn, The Lords of Terra and Guilliman.

Dorn, who was seen as a threat beyond all the other Post-Heresy Primarchs by the Terran Lords was put under pressure no other Chapter faced following the Heresy. Dorn was at the end the Primarch closest to the Emperor and hand picked to sit at his right hand. The Imperial Fist were always tied closer to Terra than any other chapter. Even after Dorn's reunion with his Father his home planet was kept as a close secret. While still recruiting from Inwit the Fist, who consider their lineage to tie directly to the Roman Legions, recruited Terra as their home world. They are in fact the only Legion with a Fortress Monastery located on Terra and it is located with in the walls of the Imperial Palace itself. The have been considered the Emperor's Praetorians since the Legion was raised. It is no accident their color scheme is golden yellow. Ala Custodes. The Fist were always the Legion tasked with escorting the Emperor and maintaining close contact with Terra.

The High Lords were very concerned Dorn would either elevate himself or the people would elevate him once the Emperor was entombed on the Golden Throne.

Have you never wondered why Vulcan and Russ were not forced to submit to the Codex Astartes? The Imperial Fist who were already, like almost all the Legions, organized in a close approximation of what Guilliman wrote down were only targeted for the reasons above. After the Heresy the High Lords wanted to know the Primarchs would not seize the Throne and that "officially" no legion was so large as to pose a threat by itself.

Despite what people think, conforming to the Codex Astartes at the time was about breaking your legion down into smaller components. Thousand man Chapters. The "tactical" doctrine Guilliman put forth in the Codex system was never an issue. All legions/chapters then and in the 41st Millennium abided by their own tactical doctrines. Only the Ultramarines and some of the 2nd and 3rd founding chapter tied to them tie themselves to the tactical system as an inflexible cannon.

Dorn did not want to break up his Legion. Particularly after the losses at the Iron Cage. Russ and Vulcan never did bow to the Codex perse. Dorn did because there was about to be a second civil war over the issue.

So he took off for several years and reformed his Legion into 4 Chapters. He NEVER turned the Imperial Fist into yellow clad Ultramarines. Dorn despised Guiliman and blamed him in no small part for failing to be on Terra with his Legion. That failure in his view led to the Emperor's injuries.

The only recognized, by the Imperial Fist themselves, successors are the second founding Chapters of the Black Templars, Crimson Fist and the Soul Drinkers.

Of those 3 only the Crimson Fist are a planet based Chapter with a confirmed codex official 1000 brother roster when at strength. The Crimson Fist were formed from new recruits following the siege of Terra and are likely just "Codex" poster boys organized by Dorn to fulfill political requirements at the time. They were the least tied to Imperial Fist culture and were drawn exclusively from new Tactical Squad recruits.

The Soul Drinkers are Space Based and nearly wiped out following their being targeted by a Daemon causing mutations in their ranks that have led t a long series of events. If they were normall over-sized it is unknown at this time.The Soul Drinkers were formed from Assault Companies drawn from the Imperial Fist when Dorn re-organized.

The Black Templars are a true mirror of the "True" face of the Imperial Fist Legion/Chapter. Sigismund along with the first company, honor Guard members and other selects formed the Black Templars and immediately continued the crusade Dorn had begun at the conclusion of the Heresy. There may be as many as a dozen or more Black Templar crusade fleets and no one knows how many Black Templars there are in all. Estimates run in excess of ten thousand.

The Imperial Fist themselves run several active crusade fleets at a time. They possess the single most powerful ship and space based weapons in the Imperium. They have a special relationship with the mechanicum that dates to before the Heresy when Dorn allowed the Phlanx to be studied by the Mechanicum and them forged that relationship as unbreakable when the Imperial Fist saved the Mechanicum during the Heresy. It is no doubt this relationship that allows for the access the Black Templars, with their many thousands of brothers and huge fleet resources and the Imperial Fist who no doubt have just as many actual brothers as the Templars to keep supplied despite attempts by the administirium's attempts to monitor their activities and numbers.

If you truly want to get a good idea of what the Imperial Fist are like, look more toward the Black Templars.

It is obvious to anyone who loves the Fluff behind 40K that Dorn would have only given the necessary lip service to Guilliman and the Codex Astartes. He offered up his newest recruits in the form of the Crimson Fist. Eventually established them on Rynn's World and they stayed just as true as possible tot the Codex. He even made them blue. As for the rest?

Considering the size of the Phalanx, the huge number of full crusader fleets the Black Templars and Imperial Fist maintain, their ability to keep themselves supplied regardless of Administratums desires and the impossibility of challenging 2 of the corner stone organizations in the Imperium, we can conclude the following.

The Imperial Fist do any freaking thing they want. In reality are likely the last chapter, including the Wolves, to have in fact submitted to being organized by a Primarch they despise. Have a chapter and resources that far exceed the official "1000" brother's Guilliman and the High Lords demanded.

Dorn was the last Primarch to Die/Disappear (depending on fluff). His ability to do pretty much what he wanted was with out challenge. His only bow to demands was letting the Legion be divided. He did not turn the Imperial Fist into Yellow Clad Ultramarines.

It is a shame GW is not more careful in how they allow Codex authors to write background. As many of the Fluff authors have said the design studio never consults and often gets the fluff people follow wrong and or does not even check with what had been written already. Not to mention sloppy character development. Just take a read in the Blood Angels Cedex to see how poorly and incorrectly fluff can be written.

I am not really sure they have a real editorial fact checking process at GW. When you have a game that exist on its incredible background and fluff you would think they might put more effort into keeping it straight. Not to mention maintaining character motivations.

I really hope the great work being done in the Heresy series might translate into a richer background for the space marine chapters. Maybe bring back some of the 4th Ed divergence?

Anyway, as possibly the most fanatical Imperial Fist background person you could find I can assure you that playing the Imperial Fist as straight Vanilla Codex is profoundly out of character for what the chapter should be.
 

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This is a very common misunderstanding of the Imperial Fist and what happened between Rogal Dorn, The Lords of Terra and Guilliman....
A well written and thorough exposition of the transition from Legion to Chapters. I look forward to seeing more of your posts.

To avoid your passion being blunted by snarky comments it might be worth checking the last posting date for threads; this one died in 2007.
 

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Wow what a detailed well thought out post- it's mostly incorrect but that doesn't detract from the effort gone into it.

Everyone was forced to submit to the Codex, the Salamanders never recovered from the Drop Site Massacre (unlike the Raven Guard they didn't try to artificially speed up their recruitment rate) so they didn't have to split down into Chapters because the Legion was still that small. The Space Wolves had been so battered by the Burning of Prospero, the ambush by the Alpha Legion and the years of crusading in the Scouring that they only split down into 2 Chapters- the Space Wolves and Wolf Brothers.

The Imperial Fists are adherents to the Codex alongside most Chapters of the Astartes, including the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, White Scars, and Raven Guard (the Iron Hands and Salamanders do follw the Codex's teachings to some degree but have a differing Chapter organisation than the Codex standard).

Dorn and Guilliman might not have been the best of friends after Dorn sodded off in his guilt-fuelled crusade during the Scouring only to return to find that his brother had had to step in to fulfil the duties he'd abandoned, but Dorn didn't despise Guilliman.
Guilliman was in the right and he didn't try to impose the tactical elements of the Codex on his brothers, just the break up of the Legions- something the Khan and Corax fully supported.

You can claim to be an Imperial Fist fan all you like, but all the fluff for the IF in the last 10 years shows what I've said to be correct and yourself to be mistaken- if I have in fact erred then please show me a source (note- Lexicanum isn't a source)
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Just on a side note:

The Codex doesn't state how a Chapter should distinguish Company markings, it doesn't even say that they have to, but the Imperial Fists do so with Shoulder Trim.

Don't know where this delusion about it being the Chest Eagle came from, cause it certainly isn't from Index Astartes or Insignium Astartes.
 
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