Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

Space Marine Legion Sizes

27K views 97 replies 23 participants last post by  Rapperport 
#1 · (Edited)
Greetings everyone,

I've had a search of the forums and indeed the internet and there doesn't seem to be a current and up to date discussion on the subject of Legion sizes.

We know the Ultramarines were the largest with 250,000, but how big were the other legions in comparison? How much do we know from the books and other fluff? What sources can we provide?

I'll edit this thread so we can see the progress made in the discussion.

I Dark Angels - 150,000 (estimated)
II
III Emperor's Children - 110,000 (60,000 post Isstvan)
IV Iron Warriors - 100,000+ (Above Average Legion size)
V White Scars - 100,000 (Average Legion size)
VI Space Wolves - 100,000 (Average Legion size)
VII Imperial Fists - 100 - 150,000 (estimated)
VIII Night Lords - 90,000 - 120,000 (pre dropsite massacre)
IX Blood Angels - 120,000 (pre Signus)
X Iron Hands - 113,000 (38,000 estimated, post dropsite massacre), 100 Capital Ships (33 estimated, post dropsite massacre)
XI
XII World Eaters - 150,000 (112,500 post Isstvan), 60+ Capital Ships
XIII Ultramarines - 250,000 (150,000 post Calth)
XIV Death Guard - 95,000 (63,000 post Isstvan), 70 Capital Ships, 210+ Escort and Assault Craft
XV Thousand Sons - 10,000 (1,000 post Prospero)
XVI Sons of Horus - 130-170,000 (70-110,000 post Isstvan), 100+ Capital Ships, 300+ Small Cruisers and Escorts
XVII Word Bearers - 140,000+ (rumoured to be close to rivalling the Ultramarines in numbers, 50,000 amassed at Calth)
XVIII Salamanders - 89,000 (7-8,000 post dropsite massacre)
XIX Raven Guard - 80,000 (3,000 post dropsite massacre)
XX Alpha Legion -100,000 (Average Legion size)
 
See less See more
#2 ·
End of the Heresy Legions were more or less at their largest.

The Word Bearers were the second largest at ~150,000. The average Legion size sat around 90-100,000.

The Emperor's Children, Space Wolves, and Thousand Sons were noticeably smaller. The Emperor's Children and Space Wolves probably numbered from 40-60,000.

The Thousand Sons closer to 10,000.

We know the Raven Guard numbered 80,000.

I don't recall off hand any particularly large or small Legions outside these.
 
#9 ·
I don't recall off hand any particularly large or small Legions outside these.
The Salamanders were noted as being a smaller Legion as well (pre-Heresy).

There are some topics in the FAQ which the OP might be interested in. Aside from that, the Forge World supplement introduces some interesting figures as Rems points out.
 
#3 ·
imagine trying to paint the whole smurf legion with those numbers.
salamanders were also smaller due to heavy losses
 
#7 ·
The new Heresy supplement provides some hard figures.

In the period leading up to Isstvan III the Sons of Horus had been on a secret recruiting drive and had built themselves up to 130,000- 170,000 strong.

Post Isstvan III, after the campaign, purging their ranks and fighting the loyalists they had 70,000 to 110,000 thousand marines, 'with considerable evidence that the latter figure is the more accurate'.

The World Eaters were 150,000 strong in the lead up to Isstvan, in the 'higher mid levels comparative to its contemporaries'. 3/4 were at Isstvan, a full third of which were betrayed and purged. That leaves 112,500 traitors left. How many of those died fighting the loyalists is not clear.

The Emperor's Children pre Isstvan had 110,000. A 'quartre to a third were marked for death'. The losses incurred by the traitors were then heavy. It's estimated they lost 50,000 in total (loyalist and traitor) at Isstvan, leaving 60,000.

The Death Guard had 95,000 pre Isstvan. A third of these were killed as loyalists in the betrayal.
 
#12 ·
Yup.

The one thing that struck me was the comments on the Intended Size of the Legions in that book; consider how powerful the Legions already were; For all intents and purposes "cleansed" and relocated the Galaxy.

And the same for a Chapter of Marines; destroy a city, send a squad, a planet, a company, a culture, a chapter etc etc; the Death Guards significance with the Number 7 had begun already; and the intention was to have 7 Great Companies of 70,000 Marines; 490,000 Astartes. As you can see they barely made a 1/5th of that.

Hence; multiply the figures we already have, and you can see how big they might have been; 400,000 Raven Guard, 1.25m Ultramarines, 600k Blood Angels.

What possible reason could the Emp have had to enable his general to aim to go for such a huge amount of soldiers? At an average of 100,000 in each legion so far, that is 500,000 by the DG intended figure; he would have gone for 10million Astartes, when 2 million did his own Galaxy.



 
#19 ·
Yup.
What possible reason could the Emp have had to enable his general to aim to go for such a huge amount of soldiers? At an average of 100,000 in each legion so far, that is 500,000 by the DG intended figure; he would have gone for 10million Astartes, when 2 million did his own Galaxy.
Here goes my rationalization in answer to your question...

The only reason that comes to mind is the Emperor having knowledge of both the Tyranid and Necron threats and trying to factor in what it would take to fight both of them successfully. That the Emperor knew about the Void Dragon is well established fluff, so it's no great leap to say he also understood that the Necrons were buried out there in the galaxy and would one day awake.

In Horus Rising there's also the planet where we meet the Emperor's Children, who have to fight off what sure sounds like a Nid colony that lost their C&C member to the Interex some time ago. It also sounds like Ciphias Cain goes to an ice world that had an entire Hive Mind buried beneath the ice for over 7,000 years. I'm making both these points to say it's likely the Emperor had knowledge of, or suspected, that the Milky Way would play smorgasboard to an alien eating machine one day.

The Great Crusade didn't seem to have a lot of problems whipping up on the remnants of the Eldar, the Orks, and what minor xenos species were out there while reuniting the lost human planets. On the other hand, the Nids or the Necrons, by themselves much less at the same time, pose threats that could take down the entire Imperium. If I was the Emperor, I'd want to load for the bears coming after the GC.
 
#13 ·
From what I remember, the Sons of Horus was one of Horus' few uncommitted forces when news broke to him of the impending arrival of Loyalist reinforcements. Leading to his ill fated gambit. The sons however got badly mauled during the Scouring when the other traitor legions fell upon them, until Abbadon shook them out of their despair and reorganized them to fight back and establish supremacy. So they would be relatively untouched post battle for Terra Id say.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Yes, they only took their Veterans. I haven't seen any numbers anywhere for this, but I imagine it to be around 20,000 - 30,000 warriors. Any more would seem at odds with just taking the veterans, any less would seem to few to be battlefield effective against ~300,000 Traitors.
 
#18 ·
Updated the statistics with the Average Legion size for those that we have no concrete figures on.

I've heard a lot of theories that the Space Wolves and Salamanders were smaller than average Legions, but are there any sources for this?

Thanks for all the comments so far :)
 
#21 ·
SW are confirmed by several authors (ADB who used to visit the site included) that tge SW were one of the smallest. I cannot remember off hand how many were attributed to them or if it is listed in a book. As to how big they are; well lets just say that the SW told Guilliman to fuck off with his codex astartes; keeping his 13 Great Companies and not making them into the current pattern of cherry picking/requisitioning aid from other companies. Considering Strike Forces are around 150 marines in 40k, a guesstimate places the SW at around 1800; if they have kept a rougly equal number since the Heresy (and thanks to losing the 13th coy, they've lost another "150", and thanks to Angron, Magnus and all other sorts of McNasties rolling around the galaxy, why should they?); they would have around 2000 post Heresy, but I'd point towards a larger figure; perhaps 4-6000 Immediately post Heresy.

Salamanders; they only had enough for 7 companies after the Heresy.

As for 1k Sons; where is it stated they only had 10k?



 
#24 ·
We know that they were roughly 10,000. During the attack on Prospero...

"At a conserative estimate, Ahriman guess that just over a thousand warriors had escaped the attack of the Wulfen.

'A tenth of the Legion,', he said"

So the Thousand Sons numbered around 10,000 before the assault on Prospero. Probably more, since it was a conservative estimate AND he said it was over. Though Ahriman may have been rounding. I'd guess 9250-12,000 marines.
 
#26 ·
Well, ATS was Book 12, DL was book 18; so between the two there must have been some change. Bearing in mind that the books in between included an Anthology, a book detailing the role of the Assassins, and a book detailing Terra; while the other books, (TFH and PB) detailed a specific legion; and IIRC, it states in TFH that there were 250K Ultras and 150K WB's.

Before then, I don't think that there were actual figures attributed to the Legions other than in non-numerical terms. Only one i can remember off my head was the EC's being reduced to 200 Astartes before meeting Fulgrim, and eventually getting 30 Lord Commanders (although McNob managed to change that in "Fulgrim" once more).



 
#27 ·
Well, ATS was Book 12, DL was book 18; so between the two there must have been some change. Bearing in mind that the books in between included an Anthology, a book detailing the role of the Assassins, and a book detailing Terra; while the other books, (TFH and PB) detailed a specific legion; and IIRC, it states in TFH that there were 250K Ultras and 150K WB's.
I did a quick scan through KnF, and I didn't see any specifics about the total WB numbers. I think it was an outside source--ADB?--that said the WBs were up to 150,000 when the Battle of Calth occurred. Though I myself haven't sen the source, and I may be repeating someone else's conjecture.

Before then, I don't think that there were actual figures attributed to the Legions other than in non-numerical terms. Only one i can remember off my head was the EC's being reduced to 200 Astartes before meeting Fulgrim, and eventually getting 30 Lord Commanders (although McNob managed to change that in "Fulgrim" once more).
I'm shocked that the EC could drop down to such a low number. Could you provide the source?

I don't think they could reach up to 60-70,000 marines in 150 years from just 200. Not with geneseed limitations and combat losses.
 
#32 ·
Hmmm, really need all my books, won't be seeing them till January though. So couldn't tell you, I'm certain it's mentioned in there somewhere though.
I couldn't find it in my paper back version. I, uh, appropriated a digital copy and searched for "fifty". Nothing about 150,000 legionaries came up. 50 didn't come up with anything. I tried "hundred thousand" and no dice there either.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top