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Craw-Daddy
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I find it hard to assume that the original numbers didn't go up during the heresy for some legions. I know some legions suffered purging casualties. However, unless they had some restrictions of number within their own legions or they suffered massive casualties from unheard battle, it would have to be assumed that the Word Bearers and Ultramarines had more than 300,000 in total. Even after Istvaan the Word Bearers had many years to replenish their ranks.

The battle of Istvaan is grossly represented in the series. Its hard to tell what the hell went on when theres thousands of survivors who survived the Drop Site, despite being sandwiched by seven legions. As such, it is to be assumed that despite such a killing field, the loyalists made massive casualties on the traitors. When really there were only two legions with an Iron Hands veteran unit.
 

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I would suggest looking up the word rival. A rival is someone close in strength to another--either slightly below or slightly above.



Based on what?



You didn't read the book then. It specifically talked about Space Marines running out of supplies. It's been many years, but I believe it was a Salamanders petitioning the Fabricator General why on Earth they have to use their own Forgeships to produce bolt rounds for themselves. It was noted in the book that this was a very desperate situation if a fleet's forgeships had to produce their own bolt shells.



Source?

The only one I would agree with is the Ultramarines. They had their own mini-empire to draw vast amount of recruits and supplies from. The others were not as fortunate (some less than others).



You really haven't read much, have you?

It states so in Massacre that they did. Page 141.
1. And you based on what? Prove Word Bearers are the true and only rival/equal/superior of Imperial Fists, and their fleet strength is larger/stronger than IF. And then I will readily concede. Fundamentally we both are making speculation, but only I need to prove and you are not?

2. Nay, I read that book, definitely. But that is long time ago, this my memory could be false. I will reread that early or late, and confirm that reference.

3. Source? Source? Then you must need to read Horus Heresy Books. Massacre(in case of Iron Hands and Salamanders) and Extermination(in case of Raven Guard). And as I said, I didn't see any reference of war material shortage of Loyalist Legions except of Mechanicum(and I'm going to reread it). And even if your reference is true, then why any other books loyalists are certainly not desperately seeking/scavenging war material, except of 'shattered' Legions? In contrast, traitors scavenged war material. And as I already said, Imperial Fist garrisoning Sol System, protecting Terra. Before outbreak schism of Mars, Mechanicum simply cannot curtail war material supply of IF. They are in the Sol System. And if they are refuse IF's demand, undoubtedly it must be seen too suspicious. If you want to prove Loyalist Legion war material shortage theory, then adduce other sources, capable of cross comparison and vouch. I have read most of HH series, but I'm scarcely seeing any of Loyalist Legion forces complain about supply of war material(in Thramas, in Signus Prime, in Prospero, in Calth, in Chondax, even in Isstvan V and Pythos, etc.) And as I said only explicit discriminating distribution war material is the Sicaran battle tank, as Horus Heresy Book said.

4. No, I had read all of Forge World Heresy Book. And I even cited/quoted sources repetitively. Let's see.

Oh shit. almost completed writing is blown out. But if you see page 139 and 141, then you would know Lorgar doesn't simply exterminated Terrans, but rather converted most of them with decades-long efforts. He only excised the 'old Iconoclast' Terrans before commitment of heresy.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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1. And you based on what? Prove Word Bearers are the true and only rival/equal/superior of Imperial Fists, and their fleet strength is larger/stronger than IF. And then I will readily concede. Fundamentally we both are making speculation, but only I need to prove and you are not?

2. Nay, I read that book, definitely. But that is long time ago, this my memory could be false. I will reread that early or late, and confirm that reference.

3. Source? Source? Then you must need to read Horus Heresy Books. Massacre(in case of Iron Hands and Salamanders) and Extermination(in case of Raven Guard). And as I said, I didn't see any reference of war material shortage of Loyalist Legions except of Mechanicum(and I'm going to reread it). And even if your reference is true, then why any other books loyalists are certainly not desperately seeking/scavenging war material, except of 'shattered' Legions? In contrast, traitors scavenged war material. And as I already said, Imperial Fist garrisoning Sol System, protecting Terra. Before outbreak schism of Mars, Mechanicum simply cannot curtail war material supply of IF. They are in the Sol System. And if they are refuse IF's demand, undoubtedly it must be seen too suspicious. If you want to prove Loyalist Legion war material shortage theory, then adduce other sources, capable of cross comparison and vouch. I have read most of HH series, but I'm scarcely seeing any of Loyalist Legion forces complain about supply of war material(in Thramas, in Signus Prime, in Prospero, in Calth, in Chondax, even in Isstvan V and Pythos, etc.) And as I said only explicit discriminating distribution war material is the Sicaran battle tank, as Horus Heresy Book said.

4. No, I had read all of Forge World Heresy Book. And I even cited/quoted sources repetitively. Let's see.

Oh shit. almost completed writing is blown out. But if you see page 139 and 141, then you would know Lorgar doesn't simply exterminated Terrans, but rather converted most of them with decades-long efforts. He only excised the 'old Iconoclast' Terrans before commitment of heresy.
I would be careful to absolutely base your facts on either the Imperial Fists or Word Bearers having the biggest Fleets. I would lean towards the Word Bearers simply on the notion that they have survived as a legion better than any other.

The biggest factor of the Imperial Fists is the fact that they actually had the second greatest amount of victories behind the Luna Wolves which was specifically stated in the beginning of Horus Rising. Forge World books are in many sakes bias like the old Index Astartes. Graham McNeill has even been noted in relating many articles of the legion's as similar to 300 comic series.
 

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1. And you based on what? Prove Word Bearers are the true and only rival/equal/superior of Imperial Fists,
Page 143 in Massacre. "Given the actions of the so called Abyss class vessels in later campaigns, it is also clear that Lorgar had increased his Legion's naval strength, possibly to levels which exceeded that of the Imperial fists."

2. Nay, I read that book, definitely. But that is long time ago, this my memory could be false. I will reread that early or late, and confirm that reference.
I'll save you some time. Paper back version, page 100. Straken, an Astartes from the Salamanders Legion said, "The lack of armaments and materiel reaching my primarch’s
Legion is becoming critical. This situation cannot be allowed to continue. We have no reserves of ammunition beyond that which the forge ships of the Mechanicum
contingent attached to our expedition fleet produce. Do you have any idea how much ammunition is expended by a Legion on a war footing?"

Kane, a highly placed Mechanicus Adept, remarked that the fact the Salamanders eating into the reserves produced by their forge ships as "a damning indictment of the rate of supply."

Kane later tells the Fabricator General he recognizes a pattern in which Legions are running short on supplies, "...the Legions without supply problems are those acting in
direct support of the Warmaster."

In contrast, traitors scavenged war material.
Where? They're not scavenging because of need, but because it is the fastest way to increase their stocks of rare, hard to craft materiel-- power armor, super heavies, titans, capital ships.

. And as I already said, Imperial Fist garrisoning Sol System, protecting Terra.
It's a recent development. The Imperial Fists are still filtering back towards Terra and finishing their on-going campaign as the Heresy breaks out.

It's not as if they've had a few decades to sit around and accumulate materiel.

then you would know Lorgar doesn't simply exterminated Terrans, but rather converted most of them with decades-long efforts. He only excised the 'old Iconoclast' Terrans before commitment of heresy.
No. And...no. I'm a bit more forgiving on this one, since the comma usage makes it ambiguous.

Go to page 146.

"After the LEgion's shaming on Khur and subsequent re-oganisation, these companies appear to have been filled with the majority of those Terran recruits who still remained in the chapter, placed under Colchisian officers of proven fervour and set to the hazardous spearhead of the Legion's future attacks."

Then the next paragraph tells how the legionary Vahn is injured, but survives the battle, however he manages to disappear from the Legion's record without ever reporting to an apothecary. Mysteriously.

This takes away the ambiguity of the comma usage on page 141.
 

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Page 143 in Massacre. "Given the actions of the so called Abyss class vessels in later campaigns, it is also clear that Lorgar had increased his Legion's naval strength, possibly to levels which exceeded that of the Imperial fists."


I'll save you some time. Paper back version, page 100. Straken, an Astartes from the Salamanders Legion said, "The lack of armaments and materiel reaching my primarch’s
Legion is becoming critical. This situation cannot be allowed to continue. We have no reserves of ammunition beyond that which the forge ships of the Mechanicum
contingent attached to our expedition fleet produce. Do you have any idea how much ammunition is expended by a Legion on a war footing?"

Kane, a highly placed Mechanicus Adept, remarked that the fact the Salamanders eating into the reserves produced by their forge ships as "a damning indictment of the rate of supply."

Kane later tells the Fabricator General he recognizes a pattern in which Legions are running short on supplies, "...the Legions without supply problems are those acting in
direct support of the Warmaster."



Where? They're not scavenging because of need, but because it is the fastest way to increase their stocks of rare, hard to craft materiel-- power armor, super heavies, titans, capital ships.



It's a recent development. The Imperial Fists are still filtering back towards Terra and finishing their on-going campaign as the Heresy breaks out.

It's not as if they've had a few decades to sit around and accumulate materiel.



No. And...no. I'm a bit more forgiving on this one, since the comma usage makes it ambiguous.

Go to page 146.

"After the LEgion's shaming on Khur and subsequent re-oganisation, these companies appear to have been filled with the majority of those Terran recruits who still remained in the chapter, placed under Colchisian officers of proven fervour and set to the hazardous spearhead of the Legion's future attacks."

Then the next paragraph tells how the legionary Vahn is injured, but survives the battle, however he manages to disappear from the Legion's record without ever reporting to an apothecary. Mysteriously.

This takes away the ambiguity of the comma usage on page 141.
1. Yes, 'possibly'. And I repetitively said fleet size is not equal of fleet strength, variable of 'ships bonded by oath and fealty', and constantly cited/quoted/proved/argued about Imperial Fists fleet strength. That is not enough to verify your opinion.

2. Okay, just now I cross-confirmed it. That much is true. Thank you for saving my time.

3. But they are still need to scavenging. In both Istvaans traitor forces took huge blow and tremendous loss. As you said, they are indeed shortage of rare materials and various armored units, even including MBTs. And regardless this is not our central argument point. As I already said, adduce other sources, capable of cross comparisons and vouch to verify your 'Loyalist shortage' theory. And then I will concede, as I said.

4. No, that does not prove your argument of 'Lorgar already exterminated all of Terrans', not at all. As I said repetitively, WBs rank and file still have many Terran-born, at least before battle of Calth. That 'purge' is nowhere throughout as you said. And page 139 explicitly said Lorgar already converted most of Terran-born Iconoclasts. Thus why exterminating already zealous, fanatical converts right now? Even Lorgar is not that stupid or crazy. Although they also must be purged, Calth is sufficient.

p.s I about to end this argument. It is utterly pointless, consumptive and drawing unending parallel line.
 

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I would be careful to absolutely base your facts on either the Imperial Fists or Word Bearers having the biggest Fleets. I would lean towards the Word Bearers simply on the notion that they have survived as a legion better than any other.

The biggest factor of the Imperial Fists is the fact that they actually had the second greatest amount of victories behind the Luna Wolves which was specifically stated in the beginning of Horus Rising. Forge World books are in many sakes bias like the old Index Astartes. Graham McNeill has even been noted in relating many articles of the legion's as similar to 300 comic series.
Thus are you saying our arguments about Imperial Fists-World Bearers fleet strength and Alpha Legions battle capability are fundamentally pointless and meaningless? Indeed, I already about to cease this tiresome, wearing argument.
 

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That is not enough to verify your opinion.
Let's back up here. You're putting words in my mouth that I never said. Let me see if I'm doing the same.

What you're saying is that the Imperial Fists have the strongest fleet. No questions asked. Keep in mind, this does not include the fleets and vessels sworn to them by one oath or another. Simply the Imperial Fists fleet. Am I correct? Probably.

Moving on. What I am saying is that is is unclear whether the Imperial Fists have the greatest naval might of all the Legions. It might be the Word Bearers. Might be the Imperial Fists. The information we have gives enough leeway that either can be true.

And that's all my *opinion* is stating.

Burden of proof is on you to prove that the Imperial Fists, on their own, have greater naval might. I'm saying it could go either way.

As I already said, adduce other sources, capable of cross comparisons and vouch to verify your theory.
The Traitor's have most of control of Mars, by far the most productive of all of the Mechanicus's forgeworlds. In addition, the Traitors have also won the loyalty of the Fabricator General himself. (Mechanicum)

The Traitors have shown they have high connections in the Mechanicus decades before the Heresy erupts. Hence the construction of the three Abyss-class vessels. (Battle for the Abyss)

We also know that the Traitors have been readying themselves for many years (decades for the Word Bearers). (Crap ton of sources...Massacre, The First Heretic, Galaxy in Flames ect.)

I think this third point is the strongest. There's nothing like having 50 years of preparation to get all your ducks in a row.

And both sides scavenged for war materiel. Loyalists got off the worst of it since the opening major battles (Istvaan III, Istvaan V) the Tratiors are free to salvage the left overs. Particularly in Istvaan V where three Loyalist's Legions have their back broken, both in men and materiel.

And 139 explicitly said Lorgar already converted most Terran-born Iconoclasts.
This is so FRUSTRATING. You're not reading the text!

139 states that Lorgar converted the old Iconclasts into believing the Emperor was a god! Not in Chaos worship.

The purging of the Terrans happened later, when Lorgar switched to Chaos.

p.s I about to end this argument. It is utterly pointless, consumptive and drawing unending parallel line.
It is when you 1. Misconstrue my arguments (basically try to refute points I never made) and 2. You're either not reading the source material or you're misreading it.

Either way, extremely frustrating on my part.
 

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Let's back up here. You're putting words in my mouth that I never said. Let me see if I'm doing the same.

What you're saying is that the Imperial Fists have the strongest fleet. No questions asked. Keep in mind, this does not include the fleets and vessels sworn to them by one oath or another. Simply the Imperial Fists fleet. Am I correct? Probably.

Moving on. What I am saying is that is is unclear whether the Imperial Fists have the greatest naval might of all the Legions. It might be the Word Bearers. Might be the Imperial Fists. The information we have gives enough leeway that either can be true.

And that's all my *opinion* is stating.

Burden of proof is on you to prove that the Imperial Fists, on their own, have greater naval might. I'm saying it could go either way.



The Traitor's have most of control of Mars, by far the most productive of all of the Mechanicus's forgeworlds. In addition, the Traitors have also won the loyalty of the Fabricator General himself. (Mechanicum)

The Traitors have shown they have high connections in the Mechanicus decades before the Heresy erupts. Hence the construction of the three Abyss-class vessels. (Battle for the Abyss)

We also know that the Traitors have been readying themselves for many years (decades for the Word Bearers). (Crap ton of sources...Massacre, The First Heretic, Galaxy in Flames ect.)

I think this third point is the strongest. There's nothing like having 50 years of preparation to get all your ducks in a row.

And both sides scavenged for war materiel. Loyalists got off the worst of it since the opening major battles (Istvaan III, Istvaan V) the Tratiors are free to salvage the left overs. Particularly in Istvaan V where three Loyalist's Legions have their back broken, both in men and materiel.



This is so FRUSTRATING. You're not reading the text!

139 states that Lorgar converted the old Iconclasts into believing the Emperor was a god! Not in Chaos worship.

The purging of the Terrans happened later, when Lorgar switched to Chaos.



It is when you 1. Misconstrue my arguments (basically try to refute points I never made) and 2. You're either not reading the source material or you're misreading it.

Either way, extremely frustrating on my part.
Oh please please please.

1. I constantly and consistently argued Imperial Fists are the greatest navel force and Word Bearers could not be their equal. And I strive to verify it with various methods. But I feel this part of argument is basically pointless, thanks to ckcrawford.

2. I repetitively said you must prove Loyalist Legions 'desperate shortage of war material', not traitor forces' 'preparation' or 'abundance'. They have time, yes. They have resources, yes. They have connections, yes. However all of these are by no means coupled with Loyalists are poor destitute. In fact quite opposite-they are also rich and affluent and in many cases at least on par with Traitor Legions in terms of equipment and supply. And I already said 'shattered Legions' are desperately scavenging war material, as many sources said however before Massacre they are certainly not.

3. Yes, yes, yes! Lorgar did not purge all of the Terran Legionaries even before Heresy and their purge is nowhere throughout as you said! Actually there are even Legions does not culled their Terran ranks at all(though WB are certainly not). This is not about text. WB are simply not purge all of Terran-borns before commitment of Heresy and battle of Calth. And my point is they don't need to. Lorgar already succeeded converting Iconoclasts to Emperor-believer, and also succeeded converting Emperor-worshipers to Chaos-worshipers.

I will cease this argument. It is over and I am FRUSTRATING so much.

Have a nice day.

Just now I confirmed your reply. And I cannot understand WHAT the Hell are you saying, Mr. incorrigible Talking Wall.

Thus yes, I am truly done with you. It seems you simply cannot comprehend or don't want to comprehend ALL my points of whole of arguments. And certainly this is not about English AND it is utterly pointless, meaningless, tiresome and wearing and above all consumptive. So much FRUSTRATING argument, so much fatigue.
 

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You're neither reading what I'm writing nor what the source material is saying.

I'm done with you. This is pointless when I'm talking to a wall. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume English isn't your first or even second language.
 

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Discussion Starter #91
Some very interesting discussions, guys. I'm looking forward to the next Horus Heresy Forgworld book, to maybe answer some more questions about fleet sizes. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #92
Just read a short story in Legacies of Betrayal which states that just prior to Calth the World Eaters had 70,000 Space Marines and the Word Bearers 40,000, amassed to invade Ultramar. Lorgar mentions that his force constitutes 1/3 of his legion. Since Forgeworld says that the Word Bearers had 140,000+ prior to the Heresy, they must've suffered at least 20,000 casualties in between these two events.
 

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The Emperor Protects
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Those 20,000 could be made up from the second purge of the brotherhood, when the Legion killed those thought to be too loyal to the Emperor or convinced in his divinity.
 

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Discussion Starter #96
Good points guys.

Just reading Tempest at the moment, which mentions only 40,000 Ultramarines escaped the Battle of Calth from the 200,000 that mustered. The rest either being killed or trapped beneath the surface. The other 50,000 Ultramarines were either on other campaigns or spread out amongst the other worlds of Ultramar.
 

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Discussion Starter #97
I Dark Angels - 150,000 (estimated)
II
III Emperor's Children - 110,000 (60,000 post Isstvan)
IV Iron Warriors - 150 - 180,000 (pre dropsite massacre), 100+ Capital Ships
V White Scars - 100,000 (Average Legion size)
VI Space Wolves - 100,000 (Average Legion size)
VII Imperial Fists - 98,356 (pre Phall), 1,500 Ships (pre Phall) highest proportion of capital ships
VIII Night Lords - 90,000 - 120,000 (pre dropsite massacre)
IX Blood Angels - 120,000 (pre Signus)
X Iron Hands - 113,000 (38,000 estimated, post dropsite massacre), 100 Capital Ships (33 estimated, post dropsite massacre)
XI
XII World Eaters - 150,000 (112,500 post Isstvan, 70,000 in the Shadow Crusade), 60+ Capital Ships
XIII Ultramarines - 250,000 (90,000 post Calth, the rest either dead or trapped beneath the surface of Calth), 30-35 capital ships
XIV Death Guard - 95,000 (63,000 post Isstvan), 70 Capital Ships, 210+ Escort and Assault Craft
XV Thousand Sons - 10,000 (1,000 post Prospero)
XVI Sons of Horus - 130-170,000 (70-110,000 post Isstvan), 100+ Capital Ships, 300+ Small Cruisers and Escorts
XVII Word Bearers - 140,000+ (rumoured to be close to rivalling the Ultramarines in numbers, 50,000 amassed at Calth, 40,000 in the Shadow Crusade)
XVIII Salamanders - 89,000 (7-8,000 post dropsite massacre)
XIX Raven Guard - 80,000 (4,000 post dropsite massacre)
XX Alpha Legion - 90-180,000 (120-130,000, best estimate)
 

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Discussion Starter #98
Tempest also has this to say...

In 899.M30 The Ultramarines had 166,000 Astartes in the Legion. It mentions that in the previous decade the Dark Angels had undoubtably been the most powerful single legion, but had suffered 50,000 casualties fighting in the northern Imperium. I think it's fair to say that the Dark Angels would still be in the upper tier of legion strengths by the time of the Horus Heresy.
 
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