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Warsmith
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been trying to find out somewhere that lists the ‘true’ size of a codex chapter.
But who drives the Tanks, Transports, and Flyers… or do they not count?
 

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Depending on chapter, but generally drivers are pulled from reserve and scout companies.
Some vehicles can operate on their own such as Land Raiders and Thunderhawks with support of techmarine from a different location. Some vehicles like land speeders can belong to a company like Ravenwing where all the drivers will be from that company.
 

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In the SM codex it states under the Chronus special character entry that Space Marines are assigned to the armory and they drive these vehicles.

Whether these Space Marines simply wear an extra hat and drive the vehicles or they're actually withdrawn from their respective Companies is unclear.

I personally edge towards the latter, since the true armored fighting vehicles of the Chapter (Land Raiders, Predators, Whirlwinds, ect) are not attached permamently to any Company, but are rather assigned on a on-need basis.

Keep in mind that Assault Squads will man the landspeedeers and every squad outside of the 10th Company have their own Rhino transports. I assume they themselves man it.

On a side note, the 5th edition of Chronus's entry states that 50 brothers are attached to the armory.
 

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Warsmith
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Looking at the Chapter in a Box, and by my count it would take 127 marines to man all the vehicles of the chapter. (Not to mention the ships)

So is it safe to presume that we have basically another company (or two) in many chapters that is the armory?
 

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Looking at the Chapter in a Box, and by my count it would take 127 marines to man all the vehicles of the chapter. (Not to mention the ships)

So is it safe to presume that we have basically another company (or two) in many chapters that is the armory?
Well none of the space ships are actually piloted by the marines, they all are piloted by "normal" humans. Rhinos could be driven by some advanced servitors.
Also its common knowledge that its not 1000 Marines it's more like 1300.
 

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Warsmith
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Well none of the space ships are actually piloted by the marines, they all are piloted by "normal" humans. Rhinos could be driven by some advanced servitors.
Also its common knowledge that its not 1000 Marines it's more like 1300.
Source please? Thats kinda the root of my question.

Or is it a disjointed part of the fluff.
 

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Source please? Thats kinda the root of my question.

Or is it a disjointed part of the fluff.
Well the fluff always states that there are exactly 100 marines per 10 companies. However that simply cant be true. It is the same as they say there were exactly 300 spartans at the battle of Thermopylae. While it is different, the analogy applies.

Space Marine chapters simply have to have more than 1000 marines, thats not counting the Librarium, Techmarines, Chaplaincy, HQs and other sub organizations with in a chapter. The "1000 space marines" is a thing that sounds cool on paper and rough standard that chapters should follow, same as Codex Astartes, is an outline of what space marine command structure should be like after the second founding.

The need to have more than 1k, is that battle losses need to be replenished with in moments notice. While reserve companies are there to boost numbers of battle companies, who boosts numbers of reserve companies? Scout company? They are already a battle trained soldiers who are in the waiting list to be old/trained enough to don their armor.

While out of 10 companies "maybe" at least 9 maintain 100 marines per company ~ more or less. Scout company should have quite a bit more than that, and thats not counting Initiates who are still going through the training and implantation as they dont count as "battle brothers".

Also there are such things as Veteran squads. While in most cases such as Ultramarines, Veterans are part of 1st company for some such as Dark Angels, Veteran squads dont have to be part of the 1st company as it requires to be part of the Inner Circle, so they remain a part of their old companies, while technically being outside of 100 battle brothers rule.

Now if you count all other organizations with in a chapter, the number of marines jumps up by at least 100 to 200 marines. Also there are marines who are partaking in training in Chaplaincy,Librarium, studying on Mars or recovering from wounds.
 

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As with most fluff in 40k it is open to debate, the way Oldman sees it and which I believe makes sense is that spacemarine chapter has a deployable boots on the ground strenght of 1000 marines, which does not include support staff such as drivers pilots etc.

Now some folk will get extreme nerd rage and qoute all sorts canon but I think this is the most logical answer and that in real terms a msrine chapter counting pilots tech marines drivers etc would be 2000 all in. The main thing with the fluff is it is always subject to change is never consistant but best of all it is how you like it!
 

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The need to have more than 1k, is that battle losses need to be replenished with in moments notice.
Oh, that's easy.

Chapters are chronically short of 1000 marines.

That's how they roll.

While reserve companies are there to boost numbers of battle companies, who boosts numbers of reserve companies?
As you said, they draw recruits and replacements from the 10th Company.

Scout company should have quite a bit more than that
From what I've read throughout the BL, the scout company rarely fills out to their full 100. Notably the Exorcists Chapter has more than 100 scouts do to their unorthodox method of daemonic possession, but, hey, they have 12 Companies, anyway, so they're not a Codex Chapter.

, Veteran squads dont have to be part of the 1st company as it requires to be part of the Inner Circle
Source?

Members of the First Company are often seconded to other Companies or operations on a on-need basis.

I'd like to see the source that says that veterans-outside-the-First-Company-seconded-to-other-Companies-are-outside-the-proscribed-100-man-organizational-list.

So, yeah, still waiting for that definitive source that states it's common for Space Marine Chapters to have 1300 battlebrothers.
 

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Even if you just peruse the chapter organization section in the new Space Marine codex, the 9 battle companies of the Ultramarines are all manned at 100 marines (plus a handful of dreadnoughts and captains). They don't bother listing the number of bodies in the 10th company, and between all of the command structure (Command, Techmarines, Librarians, Apothecaries, and Chaplains) there are about 100 or so marines that are not part of the 10x100 structure of the codex.

It's also pretty well established in all the books that each company shall be 10x10 squads at "full fighting strength"...this often means that squads go in at lesser strength or that some savvy chapters might maintain reserve marines attached to a company that are not part of the companies "fighting strength".

So while there is no official statement I can find that says most chapters are 1200-1300 marines, it seems clear that the size of a typical chapter could easily fluctuate from as low as 600 to as high as 1300 marines depending upon the chapters current deployment, attrition, and quality of it's recruiting worlds.
 

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Unless you are a smurf, or one of their most zealous descendants, most chapters only pays lip service to the Codex Astartes. Or ignoring it wholly, like many others. Just look at the Black Templars, speculated to be at 7000+
 

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"The Codex states that a Space Marine Chapter should be split into 10 companies of 100 Marines each, plus a Space Marine Captain, Apothecary, Company Standard and Chaplain for each company.

Existing outside the Company level organisation, each chapter has an Armoury consisting of the chapter's Techmarines and tanks, a Librarium consisting of the Chapter's Librarians, a Chapter Space Marine Fleet and the Chapter Master, plus various headquarters staff and the Chapter's servitors and human serfs." - Index Astartes: Codex Astartes

So in a sense based on this information I'd say there are roughly 1050 Astartes in a chapter not counting serfs, servitors and other Auxilla. That's just my two cents though.
 
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I think it would be nigh on impossible for a chapter to contain exactly spot on 1000 marines. As mentioned above, unless the chapter was absolutely dedicated to the Codex Astartes, this number would need to fluctuate to incorporate battle losses, crippling injuries, auxiliaries, support, med-staff etc.

I would even say that rigidly conforming to the 1000 marine doctrine would be a disadvantage in many respects. Chapters need to be flexible to adapt to any task/mission/campaign. Limiting the number to 1000 could limit the tactical options available. If I was pushed, I would say anywhere between 1000 and 1500 for full chapter strength.
 

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I think it would be nigh on impossible for a chapter to contain exactly spot on 1000 marines. As mentioned above, unless the chapter was absolutely dedicated to the Codex Astartes, this number would need to fluctuate to incorporate battle losses, crippling injuries, auxiliaries, support, med-staff etc.
Which would prevent the ten squads of ten men malarkey, as by having captains etc you then exceed the proscribed 1000 Marines.
Isn't the Codex fun? :laugh:
 

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I think it would be nigh on impossible for a chapter to contain exactly spot on 1000 marines. As mentioned above, unless the chapter was absolutely dedicated to the Codex Astartes, this number would need to fluctuate to incorporate battle losses, crippling injuries, auxiliaries, support, med-staff etc.

I would even say that rigidly conforming to the 1000 marine doctrine would be a disadvantage in many respects. Chapters need to be flexible to adapt to any task/mission/campaign. Limiting the number to 1000 could limit the tactical options available. If I was pushed, I would say anywhere between 1000 and 1500 for full chapter strength.
'The "Immortals" (from the Greek Ἀθάνατοι, sometimes "Ten Thousand Immortals" or "Persian Immortals") was the name given by Herodotus to an elite force of soldiers who fought for the Achaemenid Empire. This force performed the dual roles of both Imperial Guard and standing army during the Persian Empire's expansion period and during the Greco-Persian Wars. Its Persian name may have been Anûšiya ('companions' perhaps confused with Anauša 'immortals' from an- 'non' + auša 'death').[1] The force consisted mainly of Persians but also included Medes and Elamites.[2]

Herodotus describes the 'Immortals' as being heavy infantry, led by Hydarnes, that were kept constantly at a strength of exactly 10,000 men. He claimed that the unit's name stemmed from the custom that every killed, seriously wounded, or sick member was immediately replaced with a new one, maintaining the numbers and cohesion of the unit.[3]
This elite corps is only called the 'Immortals' in sources based on Herodotus. There is evidence of the existence of a permanent corps from Persian sources, which provided a backbone for the tribal levies who made up the bulk of the Achaemenid armies. These do not however record the name of "Immortals".[1] "Probably, Herodotus' informant has confused the name Anûšiya ('companions') with Anauša ('Immortals')."[1]
'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortals_(Persian_Empire)
 

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As said previously, the attached vindicators, predators and land speeders etc. are manned by members of the reserve assault and devastator companies. These companies are almost never fielded as single units, because their purpose is to support the battle companies. That gives us 400 marines to fill the ancillary roles within the various battle companies.

While an individual company's strength might be well over 100 with the attachment of vehicle crews and supplementary assault and dev squads, I don't think any chapter would ever manage to get over 1000 marines.
 

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I think it would be nigh on impossible for a chapter to contain exactly spot on 1000 marines... unless the chapter was absolutely dedicated to the Codex Astartes, this number would need to fluctuate to incorporate battle losses, crippling injuries, auxiliaries, support, med-staff etc.

I would even say that rigidly conforming to the 1000 marine doctrine would be a disadvantage in many respects. Chapters need to be flexible to adapt to any task/mission/campaign. Limiting the number to 1000 could limit the tactical options available.
Hmmmmmmm... if you screamed that at eardrum splitting levels and destroyed several buildings in the near vicinity I think you've captured Russ's or Dorn's side of the whole initial Codex discussion.
 
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