[BananaKing]

Thus not familiar, the Tyranid Special character named the Swarmlord has weapons that if you pass an invulnerable save made against inflicted wounds by the swarmlord, you must reroll them.

So I was looking at the bonesabre rule, I noticed that it makes no mention of you having to reroll only once. I just checked the official GW Tyranid FAQ and they make no mention of it either. Now I believe you'd only have to reroll a passed save once since I don't think I've ever come across an instance where you had to keep rerolling until you fail.

However, I'm wondering that since there is no official ruling that states that the bonesabre's wounds only force one reroll, could you argue that your opponent must keep rerolling his Inv until he receives a wound? Or is there a rule in the BGB that I'm overlooking that supersedes this?

Just a thought, what do you all think?

 

[Blueberrypop]

If you would ever like to play with these people again it's one reroll, if you really hate them infinate

 

[cazmac]

ive allways taken warhammer games as you can never re-roll a re-roll so thats my two cents

 

[forkbanger]

The rulebook is clear that a dice can only be rerolled once - the Swarmlord's bonesabers will force each successful invulnerable save to be rerolled once. (BRB p2, Re-Rolls and Roll-Offs boxout)

 

[buckythefly]

Yeah forkbanger has it, the Big ass rulebook says that any die can only be rerolled once for any reason.

 

[LostIsland]

So how would bonesabres interact with Fateweavers re-roll failed saves?

 

[chromedog]

You only get the one re-roll.
Fateweaver OR the bone-sabres. One is wasted.

The same is true of a 'guided' Wave Serpent's turret weapon (which is twin-linked).

Or of missed hits on the charge with master-crafted weapons AND a chaplain leading.

You may never re-roll a re-roll.

 

[SHarrington]

Bonesabres and Fateweavers rerolled invuls would effectively cancel each other out.

Heres why:
Roll your saves. Reroll all your fails (fateweaver) and all your successes (sabres). Or in otherwords, reroll everything you get no matter what.
The second roll of the dice is 100% rerolls, so can never be re-re-rolled.

Looking at from a logical perspective, if your going to reroll your entire first roll, why roll it in the first place? In fact why not just roll the dice once and call it your second roll.
(This works for Fortuned Warlocks as well.)

 

[darklove]

As above: the re-rolls cancel each other out. The first roll is the only one that counts in such a situation.

 

[don_mondo]

While logically, they might cancel each other out, the rules would be to roll them, pick up all the dice, and re-roll everything. Silliness, but whatever.

 

[forkbanger]

Logically, you would make only a single roll.

Making two rolls is pointless when the first is ignored.

 

[lokis222]

I don't know. Statistically, whichever rule applies, you should re-roll. You pass, go swarmlord. You fail, go eldar whatchamafrigger. The odds of failing two 4+ saves is 25%. The odds of failing a 2+ roll twice are not the same as failing a 4+ twice. It is 10%. Or at least a big bottle of sake is making a strong argument in favor of this.

Think about it this way. Guy has a 6+ cover save and makes it. The odds of guy making it again are pretty slim. So, guy should re-roll. Since you ever only get one re-roll as of the Big Bloody Rule Book, the one that should apply is the one that's rules counts. Both rules should be applied depending on the outcome. That is what they are designed for. They are rules for different areas. If you pass, Swarmlord. If you fail, Eldar. They don't cancel. They can both apply, but only when their rule is invoked. Since you only ever get one re-roll, only one rule can be invoked per incident.

Now to be shouted down....

 

[lokis222]

Logically, you would make only a single roll.

Making two rolls is pointless when the first is ignored.

The first is ignored, but the statistical average of two, depending on the needed roll, is always different from just one roll. When you use dice, you are using a statistical basis. The entire game revolves around it.

 

[Aramoro]

Re-rolling all the fails and all the saves is exactly the same as not re-rolling anything.

You're confusing the probability of rolling a save on the same dice twice with the general probability of making your save. If you have a 2+ save to make and 6 of them to do, you will fail 1 and pass 5, if you reroll everything you will still fail 1 and pass 5.

Aramoro

 

[lokis222]

I am not actually.

You are talking about the idea that if you flip a coin. No matter how many times you flip a coin, you always have a fifty-fifty chance of heads or tails.

This concept, like all statistics, requires a large sample to be true. When you have at most 5 or 6 dice when all are rolled, it is not a large enough sample for what you are saying to apply.

Depending on which side of 4+ the save falls, the probability will change. If you make a 6+, it is a 1 in 6 chance. If you have to re-roll it, you still have a 1 in 6 chance. If you are only rolling 4 dice, odds are not in you favor.

However, this is not about statistics, it is about rules and when rules apply. You can houserules it to say you only roll one dice, but that is not what the rules say. When eldar and swarmlord meet, you always roll a second dice depending on which rule is invoked and only one reroll happens as of the rule book.

Eldar only applies if you fail. Swarmlord only applies if you pass. One re-roll.

 

[forkbanger]

Eldar only applies if you fail. Swarmlord only applies if you pass. One re-roll.

You would reroll every dice, and the results of the second roll are completely independent of the first. There is no point at all in rerolling everything, it makes absolutely no difference.

I mean, you could-
Roll 10 4++ saves.
5/10 pass. 5/10 fail.
Swarmlord forces the 5 passes to reroll.
Fortune forces the 5 failures to reroll.
Reroll all 10 4++ saves.
5/10 pass. 5/10 fail.

Or simply-
Acknowledge everything must be rerolled. Don't bother, as it makes no difference at all.
Roll 10 4++ saves.

 

[SHarrington]

I am not actually.

You are talking about the idea that if you flip a coin. No matter how many times you flip a coin, you always have a fifty-fifty chance of heads or tails.

This concept, like all statistics, requires a large sample to be true. When you have at most 5 or 6 dice when all are rolled, it is not a large enough sample for what you are saying to apply.

Depending on which side of 4+ the save falls, the probability will change. If you make a 6+, it is a 1 in 6 chance. If you have to re-roll it, you still have a 1 in 6 chance. If you are only rolling 4 dice, odds are not in you favor.

However, this is not about statistics, it is about rules and when rules apply. You can houserules it to say you only roll one dice, but that is not what the rules say. When eldar and swarmlord meet, you always roll a second dice depending on which rule is invoked and only one reroll happens as of the rule book.

Eldar only applies if you fail. Swarmlord only applies if you pass. One re-roll.

I'm actually quite qualified to rebute your assumption.
I'm a math tutor at the college I attend, with a special interest in statistics.
(It's why my friends say I play mathammer, not warhammer!)
Since you said statistics, I will elaborate in said language.
=====================================================
What your describing is true, but only if your accepting the first rolls have value.
But since the first roll has no elements in any set related to the outcome, and only the second roll has elements in either the PASS set, or the FAIL set, the first roll is discounted completely.

The probabilities related to what you roll in the first rolling, are not related to what you roll in the second set.

I see what your trying to say, that you should have a minimum number of rolls and that if you roll more dice, the mean should hit 3.5, but in fact, it allready does, its just that its not easily recognizable when your rolling less then 30 or 40 dice.

Your assumption that by rolling the first set it will improve the mean of the second set is flawed in this way. The mean already exists, rolling more dice will not cause it to change, only become more visable to us humans.

Fin

 

[darklove]

While logically, they might cancel each other out, the rules would be to roll them, pick up all the dice, and re-roll everything. Silliness, but whatever.

This is not supported by GW's own line, which has been included in at least the Eldar FAQ. Conflicting re-rolls cancel each other out.

 

[forkbanger]

That's not in the Eldar FAQ.

 

[DeathKlokk]

I don't know. Statistically, whichever rule applies, you should re-roll. You pass, go swarmlord. You fail, go eldar whatchamafrigger. The odds of failing two 4+ saves is 25%. The odds of failing a 2+ roll twice are not the same as failing a 4+ twice. It is 10%. Or at least a big bottle of sake is making a strong argument in favor of this.

Think about it this way. Guy has a 6+ cover save and makes it. The odds of guy making it again are pretty slim. So, guy should re-roll. Since you ever only get one re-roll as of the Big Bloody Rule Book, the one that should apply is the one that's rules counts. Both rules should be applied depending on the outcome. That is what they are designed for. They are rules for different areas. If you pass, Swarmlord. If you fail, Eldar. They don't cancel. They can both apply, but only when their rule is invoked. Since you only ever get one re-roll, only one rule can be invoked per incident.

Now to be shouted down....

The odds of passing/failing are exactly the same on the second roll because the first is totally discounted. Your logic is faulty.