Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 20 of 42 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Question 1.

Say an indepentant character (a chaos space marine Lord) joined a squad of 4 chaos space marine's, and my squad of 8 space marine assault troops decide to fire their pistols (1 shot) at said bad guys, which kills the 4 chaos space marines leaving the Lord by himself, am I now allowed to assault the lord with my 8 assault troops, or has the lord become a new unit since it's an independant character.

Question 2.

A chaos space marine Lord joined a unit of 10 chaos space marines which all try to hide behind a peice of small area terrain, this bunches them up forcing the Lord to be placed just out side of the terrain and the Lord is the only thing my Lascannon trooper can see out of that squad, can I kill the Lord now since hes all I can see out of that squad.
 

·
Porn King!!!
Joined
·
8,137 Posts
1- To my knowledge, if he joined the squad then he becomes part of it for assault purposes. This would mean that yes you can charge him even if you kill off the squad he joined.

2 - Yep. Unless there is another, closer unit of yours on the table at which point he still could not be targetted.
 

·
Jac "Baneblade" O'Bite
Joined
·
8,082 Posts
1- But in the next turn he reverts back to being a Indepent Character for all assault intents and purposes doesn't he?

2 - Whatever person does that really needs to have their headchecked in my humble opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
372 Posts
To expand on (1), can you assault a different unit to the one you shot at, if the one you shot at was wiped out by the shooting? Say Unit A and Unit B are both within charge range, but you choose to shoot up Unit A with the intent of charging them. Your shooting goes really well, and Unit A are all dead; can you assault Unit B now, or is your assault wasted?

As far as I can tell, the BRB says you have to assault the unit you shot at, but makes no accommodation for that unit not being there when the assault phase comes around.
 

·
Porn King!!!
Joined
·
8,137 Posts
Basically no. You must assault the unit you shot at according to the rules. If you wipe out the unit during the shooting phase, you may not assault.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,822 Posts
Jacobite said:
1- But in the next turn he reverts back to being a Indepent Character for all assault intents and purposes doesn't he?

2 - Whatever person does that really needs to have their headchecked in my humble opinion.
1. Was the IC eligible to take a wound from shooting by the unit that wants to charge him? Yes. Good enough for me, charge the sucker!! As for someone's follow-up question, if you kill whatever you're shooting at totatlly, you don't get to assault, cause you can only assault what you shot at.

2. Yep, you can zap that character all you want, and he doesn't even have to be the closest target. Reason: You're not shooting at an IC, you're shooting at the unit he belongs to, he just happens to be the only model in it that is eligible to be taken as a casualty due to LOS.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
Agree with views on number 1. An IC he may be but he was a part of the target unit and so is valid for a charge.

Note also that if you shoot a unit it becomes the FIRST unit you have charge. You can still charge other units following the normal rules (assuming you didn't wipe out the unit you shot at of course).

On number 2 - yep, casualties are removed (in most cases) from LOS and Range. If he is the only viable target when you choose to shoot the squad, he'll be the one getting hit and making saves!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,445 Posts
Regarding #2, if he's not the closest target, you can still shoot at him, but you must pass a leadership test to do so, or else you'll shoot at whatever is nearest.
 

·
Porn King!!!
Joined
·
8,137 Posts
Cadian81st said:
Regarding #2, if he's not the closest target, you can still shoot at him, but you must pass a leadership test to do so, or else you'll shoot at whatever is nearest.
Wrong. An Independant Character may not be targetted, EVER, if he is not the closest unit unless he has joined a squad or has a retinue. Then you may target the unit he is with. The other exception is if he is a Monstrous Creature which will also allow you to target him. Rolling target priority means nothing in the case of an IC, you CANNOT target him unless he means the above criteria.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,822 Posts
The Wraithlord said:
Cadian81st said:
Regarding #2, if he's not the closest target, you can still shoot at him, but you must pass a leadership test to do so, or else you'll shoot at whatever is nearest.
Wrong. An Independant Character may not be targetted, EVER, if he is not the closest unit unless he has joined a squad or has a retinue. Then you may target the unit he is with. The other exception is if he is a Monstrous Creature which will also allow you to target him. Rolling target priority means nothing in the case of an IC, you CANNOT target him unless he means the above criteria.
Ummm, . You did note that the example we're discussing consisted of an IC joined to a unit, with only the IC visible, right?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Question 3

Say my Rhino full of 10 marines moves 11 inches, can I dis-embark them and if so can I fire my weapons (of corse i wouldn't be able to fire heavy weapons or max range on bolters or assault) I read the rules about this question but can't seem to put it together.

Question 4

Say my Land speeder (which didn't move) gets hit by a strength 10 weapon, being my Speeder has 10 amour all around it gets glanced right away, does my enemy get to also roll for a pen.
 

·
Porn King!!!
Joined
·
8,137 Posts
DeathFang said:
Question 3

Say my Rhino full of 10 marines moves 11 inches, can I dis-embark them and if so can I fire my weapons (of corse i wouldn't be able to fire heavy weapons or max range on bolters or assault) I read the rules about this question but can't seem to put it together.

Question 4

Say my Land speeder (which didn't move) gets hit by a strength 10 weapon, being my Speeder has 10 amour all around it gets glanced right away, does my enemy get to also roll for a pen.
3: Yes, they can disembark and still shoot. They cannot assault however.

4: Yes he gets to roll for pen by the rules but remember 2 things: 1) even a roll of 1 will be a penetrating hit so why bother rolling and 2) if you have moved the speeder more than 6" all hits are glancing only regardless, so again why bother? :D
 

·
Porn King!!!
Joined
·
8,137 Posts
don_mondo said:
The Wraithlord said:
Cadian81st said:
Regarding #2, if he's not the closest target, you can still shoot at him, but you must pass a leadership test to do so, or else you'll shoot at whatever is nearest.
Wrong. An Independant Character may not be targetted, EVER, if he is not the closest unit unless he has joined a squad or has a retinue. Then you may target the unit he is with. The other exception is if he is a Monstrous Creature which will also allow you to target him. Rolling target priority means nothing in the case of an IC, you CANNOT target him unless he means the above criteria.
Ummm, . You did note that the example we're discussing consisted of an IC joined to a unit, with only the IC visible, right?

True enough. However, with only the IC visible, you cannt claim to be shooting at the retinue which allows you to target him. You have to be able to see at least one model of the retinue to do so. If the IC is all you can see, refer to the IC rules for targetting.

It's nitpicking I know but more often than not you will be called on this one in this way. It boils down to the fact that you CAN'T see the retinue so therefore you can't target them. The rules for the IC don't change so if he is all you can see, he is still an IC. It is unfortunately one of those areas that GW didn't think through quite far enough.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,822 Posts
The Wraithlord said:
don_mondo said:
The Wraithlord said:
Cadian81st said:
Regarding #2, if he's not the closest target, you can still shoot at him, but you must pass a leadership test to do so, or else you'll shoot at whatever is nearest.
Wrong. An Independant Character may not be targetted, EVER, if he is not the closest unit unless he has joined a squad or has a retinue. Then you may target the unit he is with. The other exception is if he is a Monstrous Creature which will also allow you to target him. Rolling target priority means nothing in the case of an IC, you CANNOT target him unless he means the above criteria.
Ummm, . You did note that the example we're discussing consisted of an IC joined to a unit, with only the IC visible, right?

True enough. However, with only the IC visible, you cannt claim to be shooting at the retinue which allows you to target him. You have to be able to see at least one model of the retinue to do so. If the IC is all you can see, refer to the IC rules for targetting.

It's nitpicking I know but more often than not you will be called on this one in this way. It boils down to the fact that you CAN'T see the retinue so therefore you can't target them. The rules for the IC don't change so if he is all you can see, he is still an IC. It is unfortunately one of those areas that GW didn't think through quite far enough.
?? It's not nitpicking, it's just incorrect. The rules DO change, the instant that he joins a unit.The fact that he's the only model I can see does not suddenly grant him IC protection from shooting. Page 51, main rulebook: "Characters who've joined units are considered part of that unit and so may not NORMALLY be picked out as targets. Characters that are not part of a unit can only be chosen as targets if they are the closest target to the firer."

OK, part 1: Is he part of a unit? Yes! And that removes his protection as an IC. Who or what I can see within the unit has no bearing, as he's "considered part of that unit" and loses the IC immunity. Therefor, I can shoot at him and the unit he is in, even if he is the only model in LOS. Because, as clearly stated in the character rules, he's "considered part of that unit". This also removes your assertion that I have to see a member of the retinue (or unit he has joined) to shoot at them, because (Yep, I'm gonna say it again) he's "considered part of that unit".

Part 2: Normally, the defending player gets to choose which models to remove as casualties, but this can be modified by LOS restrictions, ie only models within range and LOS can be removed as casualties (barring Barrage, scatter, etc). So if the IC is the only model in the targetted unit that is within range and LOS, he takes the hit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
don_mondo said:
The Wraithlord said:
don_mondo said:
The Wraithlord said:
Cadian81st said:
Regarding #2, if he's not the closest target, you can still shoot at him, but you must pass a leadership test to do so, or else you'll shoot at whatever is nearest.
Wrong. An Independant Character may not be targetted, EVER, if he is not the closest unit unless he has joined a squad or has a retinue. Then you may target the unit he is with. The other exception is if he is a Monstrous Creature which will also allow you to target him. Rolling target priority means nothing in the case of an IC, you CANNOT target him unless he means the above criteria.
Ummm, . You did note that the example we're discussing consisted of an IC joined to a unit, with only the IC visible, right?

True enough. However, with only the IC visible, you cannt claim to be shooting at the retinue which allows you to target him. You have to be able to see at least one model of the retinue to do so. If the IC is all you can see, refer to the IC rules for targetting.

It's nitpicking I know but more often than not you will be called on this one in this way. It boils down to the fact that you CAN'T see the retinue so therefore you can't target them. The rules for the IC don't change so if he is all you can see, he is still an IC. It is unfortunately one of those areas that GW didn't think through quite far enough.
?? It's not nitpicking, it's just incorrect. The rules DO change, the instant that he joins a unit.The fact that he's the only model I can see does not suddenly grant him IC protection from shooting. Page 51, main rulebook: "Characters who've joined units are considered part of that unit and so may not NORMALLY be picked out as targets. Characters that are not part of a unit can only be chosen as targets if they are the closest target to the firer."

OK, part 1: Is he part of a unit? Yes! And that removes his protection as an IC. Who or what I can see within the unit has no bearing, as he's "considered part of that unit" and loses the IC immunity. Therefor, I can shoot at him and the unit he is in, even if he is the only model in LOS. Because, as clearly stated in the character rules, he's "considered part of that unit". This also removes your assertion that I have to see a member of the retinue (or unit he has joined) to shoot at them, because (Yep, I'm gonna say it again) he's "considered part of that unit".

Part 2: Normally, the defending player gets to choose which models to remove as casualties, but this can be modified by LOS restrictions, ie only models within range and LOS can be removed as casualties (barring Barrage, scatter, etc). So if the IC is the only model in the targetted unit that is within range and LOS, he takes the hit.
I,m going to agree with don_mondo. The IC can join or leave a unit in the movement phase or if it is a retinue he is stuck with them. He (if joined) can be targeted as part of the unit and if he is the only model in LOS and range then he is going to take the hit, he doesn't suddenly (in the shooting phase) revert to not being part of the unit.(cant find any basis for this in the rules) Being part of a unit has its perks as well as its downside. :twisted:
 

·
Porn King!!!
Joined
·
8,137 Posts
I will bow to the superior numbers. Discretion, valour, all that :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,445 Posts
Damn noble of you Wraith. :D

Regarding the S10 issue, aren't the only S10 weapons some big ass Tau gun and the Imperial Laser Destroyer? Or are there others?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
Cadian81st said:
Damn noble of you Wraith. :D

Regarding the S10 issue, aren't the only S10 weapons some big ass Tau gun and the Imperial Laser Destroyer? Or are there others?
Demolisher cannon on a Vindicator, strength 10 AP 2 large blast template of death :twisted:
 
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
Top