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Discussion Starter #21
You're thinking of the Nicor, which also served as the flagship for the Carcharodons during the Badab War.
Does that confirm the CAs as Raven Guard Successor's then? And not Night Lords? They have some physical similarities, as well as limited tactical similarities as well

Two other things:

1. The Blood Ravens-Thousand Sons connection didn't become solid until the Horus Heresy novel A Thousand Sons. I understand Black Library has tried to distance itself from that angle since, but it was a rather blatant one.

2. And speaking of blatant angles/connections, I sincerely hope the decision is never made to disconnect the Knights Errant from the Grey Knights. I can't see how that would be accomplished without it being a contrived move, purely to throw in an unnecessary "Gotcha!" twist.
1. Now that it's been pointed out to me, it seems obvious, but at the time, I just figured it was story-seeding for something in the future and the Raven References were just because those were the guys that specialized in seeing the future, which is commonly associated with Raven symbology, from what i know.

2. The Knights Errant thing though? I dunno it seems popular as an idea, but I just figured that they were proto-inquisition and the GKs come later. Though I find the idea of the GKs as literally being of IMPERIAL stock to be a bit odd as well. I guess they could be both? But how much time passes between the GKs being founded and the inquisition being founded? It's several thousand years, right? I could be wrong on that last one, but does that make sense?

Really? I picked up a few hints since A Thousand Sons. Thief of Revelations (IIRC) for example.
Is "Thief of Revelations" another book, short story or a warship?
 

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Does that confirm the CAs as Raven Guard Successor's then? And not Night Lords? They have some physical similarities, as well as limited tactical similarities as well
What confirms it is images of the Raven Guard, both in HH: Extermination, and on the model Raven Guard Land Speeder Javelin both having iconography that exactly matches the Pacific Islander-style markings the CAs use.

1. Now that it's been pointed out to me, it seems obvious, but at the time, I just figured it was story-seeding for something in the future and the Raven References were just because those were the guys that specialized in seeing the future, which is commonly associated with Raven symbology, from what i know.
At this point it's not even worth talking about the Blood Ravens. Just follow the storyline of Revuel Arvida, as that's pretty much the only thing that matters as far as where the Blood Ravens end up.

2. The Knights Errant thing though? I dunno it seems popular as an idea, but I just figured that they were proto-inquisition and the GKs come later. Though I find the idea of the GKs as literally being of IMPERIAL stock to be a bit odd as well. I guess they could be both? But how much time passes between the GKs being founded and the inquisition being founded? It's several thousand years, right? I could be wrong on that last one, but does that make sense?
You've confused a couple of things. The Inquisition has existed pretty much since the end of the Heresy. However, the Ordo Hereticus isn't formally established until after Goge Vandire is defeated. As stated in the GK codex, it's believed that the marines used to first found the GKs had their original geneseed removed and replaced with that of the Emperor. Thus, it's possible at at least some of the Knights Errant and the first GKs to be one and the same, just not at the same time.

For the purpose of the thread, I'll mention that there is a loyalist branch of Emperor's Children mentioned in HH: Conquest who go by the title of "Death Eagles". While it may be a coincidence, if they are related to the chapter of the same name, then I present it as evidence, alongside the CA, that trying to connect chapters to geneseed based on combat tactics is essentially worthless.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
40k Fluff seems to be of two minds when it comes to geneseed and the fate/nature of the marines it creates.

At some times it seems to be a wholly logical nurture-dominant narrative. The geneseed doesn't matter, unless it is somehow faulty. You could easily produce siege, void or special forces-esc chapters by chance or design from standard UM geneseed even though the UMs themselves are consumate masters of everything in the codex, which includes the whole range of Astartes tactics (and thus rather bland in practice, but in theory capable of anything).

At others, the fate or nature of a chapter seems derived in an occultic way from it's origins. There are references to Legions which already share their Primarch's nature in various ways before they ever meet. There are numerous numerological references presaging an eventual fate (Death Guard's 7 Great Companies, "The Original 7" referenced in Outcast Dead, for instance) and references to "cursed" geneseed. I have also seen references to Successor chapters which are basically patterned off their fore-bearers.

There seems to be no rhyme or reason for it. Logically though, there is no reason to link chapters by tactics to shared geneseed, or even vice-versa in most cases.

For instance; There seems to be nothing genetic that makes most UM successors follow the Codex to the letter; it's a choice and maybe some nurturing from their parent chapter, but there is no reason why it should be genetic in any way.

I suspect we really don't know that much about just what can and cannot be transmitted through the geneseed outside of physical features; like the Night Lord's eyes, the Space Wolves' teeth or the Salamander's rockin tan.

I think it's a matter of taste and experience, modified by need and culture for instance that causes a chapter to adopt any particular specialty over another, if any.

Say we had a chapter of loyalists derived from World Eaters. Minus the Butcher's Nails; why *couldn't* they be a chapter of reserved, taciturn warrior-monks? Loyalist Night Lords could manifest as anything; even unusually humanitarian Reasonable Marines.

However, if you had a plan from the start; say some Adeptus Terra or Mechanicus High-Muckety-Muck decides that what the Imperium really needs is to re-create the traitor legions in loyalist form; they might *or might not* use available hidden stockpiles of traitor geneseed. Or UMs, whatever. Unless there is, or they *believed* there was some reason that some of what they wanted ran in the blood.

This does conflict though with the chicken-egg aspect of the occultic fate or nature of certain geneseeds. The argument would fit well in 40K fluff that they are `born bad`, yoked to dark fates, ect. Aside from the fleshchange (and why, if they are thousand suns; do the Blood Ravens not suffer from that?), if you could fix that, is there something in the 1K-sons that makes them look at naughty books? or was that always Magnus?

This takes us down Alternate Universe Paths; like how would the Iron Warriors have turned out if they had been granted a more even hand in the Crusade? Or turn it on it's head; what if Robute Gulliman had been forced to become the master of seigecraft? Would he and his legion have turned from the grinding turmoil and become traitors? Certainly there are UM Successors who have gone rogue. if Loyalists can turn traitor, why couldn't traitor geneseed bear loyalist fruit? Certainly the example of the Knights errant seems to indicate it's as much a choice as a group culture.

Yet some Geneseed, particularly that which is more flawed or extreme; like the Space Wolves seems destined for a very particular role or failure. Say you could get a handle on the Canis Helix, enough to make the Wulfen only so bad a flaw as the Red Thirst or Black Rage, could you then make a Chapter of Wolves in say...Imperial Fists clothing? Space Wolves genetically, which fight and act like Imperial Fists. The Scrimshaw would be easy enough, but equally trivial ultimately.
 

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I agree that there's a lot of grey area between what the geneseed affects, and what the Imperium believes it affects and thus acts upon. The combination of geneseed, planetary culture, founding history, available resources, and any number of other factors can influence the doctrines and traditions of a particular chapter. How much one factor influences a chapter compared to another could vary tremendously.

The Imperial Fist's particular brand of psychoindoctrination may be what's responsible for that geneseed-line's noticeable stubbornness. It might have nothing to do with the geneseed at all. On the other hand, a mis-handled batch of implants derived from perfectly good Ultramarine stock may lead to hyper aggression when in the presence of even minor warp phenomenon. That said, I feel it's a bit more complicated than just describing a geneseed as "faulty." There may be thousands, if not millions of minor differences between geneseed, even within the same chapter. Differences like, "Five percent more likely to have black carapace rejection." or, " Two percent more likely to find the slaughter of innocents amusing." Just thinking about the science behind it is mind boggling and why geneseed processing and implantation must be done with the strictest of rituals to keep such minor differences from compromising a newly implanted marine.

I will say that the Thousand Sons Flesh Change is just as likely to have been Tzeentch's directly meddling and not genetic at all. As if there were microscopic Marks of Tzeentch inscribed onto the Thousand Sons geneseed. Meaning it could be turned on and off at Tzeentch's will. Not saying there's really proof of it, but it is a possible explanation for why the Blood Ravens aren't affected by it, assuming they make use of the Thousand Sons geneseed at all.
 

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You're thinking of the Nicor, which also served as the flagship for the Carcharodons during the Badab War.
Thanks :)

I really hope they do more to explore the Carcharodon Astra - Raven Guard connection :)

The first group of aspirants created using the gene technology Corax had acquired on his trip to Terra were called the Raptors. I think this first group numbered 500 IIRC. This is before the Alpha Legion infiltrators tampered with everything. Its safe to assume most of them survived to become the Raptors chapter during the second founding. Taking this into account would explain why the Raptors have few problems with their gene seed.
Yeah, I wasn't sure if the link was going to be as blatant as that but it could be. Even more interesting is that if the Raptors do have the super geneseed created by Corax they would have geneseed superior to every other Chapter since Corax improved it so much. There is a storyline just asking to be told :)

What confirms it is images of the Raven Guard, both in HH: Extermination, and on the model Raven Guard Land Speeder Javelin both having iconography that exactly matches the Pacific Islander-style markings the CAs use.
I've not seen the Land Speeder Javelin pic, do you have a link to it?
 

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