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Horus that was the most well-written nonargument I've seen on this thread. +rep to you!
In any case I feel compelled to defend my Guardsmen since you mentioned them.
Straight off the GW website:
The Imperial Guard is the largest and most diverse organization the galaxy has ever seen. It contains billions of men from a million different worlds. Half-feral savages march alongside former hive plant workers. Men whose home was blistering desert, tropical jungle, icy steppe or desolate moorland are united under the banner of the Imperium of Man. The entire diversity of the massive Imperium is encapsulated in its ranks.
There are so many different worlds and tens of thousands of regiments available to build and customize as your own. Imperial Guard should be the most diverse army in the game in terms of fluff and modelling too. Take Catachan legs put them on a Cadian body with Elysian heads and arms. There are so many things you can do with the IG. Outside of the Orks, all the alien races are pretty standardized though. I will agree with you there.
 

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I don't hate Vanilla Marines or any other SM army out there. They stay crunchy in my milk.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
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To all the space marine spammers on this site, the gauntlet has been laid down. Us space marine haters have made our arguments (quite eloquently and articulately i might add). I'd like to see some real counter arguments. Not just knee jerk reactions of 'No no! Its not true i tell you! Youre all wrong!'

Ultramarine players: There is a special hell reserved for you.

Get some individuality, all of you.

Signed, Panda.
Too be really honest, I'm not exactly all that keen on the official chapters. When I'm playing space marines, (or any other army for that matter) I like to put my spin on it. Now, I do find some of your comments ironic given that you list guard as your primary army choice. They have many of the same traits as the Space marines in terms of xenophobia, specieism etc. Really if you play imperial forces, you've got to accept your army is more or less based around some of those very same traits. Likewise, while Hitler might take marines as his shock troops, his army would certainly be based upon the Imp guard. (Especially given the German tendancy to big tanks) Thankfully most of the players I know can distinguish fantasy from reality and don't exhibit these traits themselves.

Though, after thinking about it for a moment, most of the armies out there exhibit some form of specieism in one degree or another. The tau are probably the least objectional, but truthfully they'll do what is neccessary for the "greater good" Eldar view most other races as ignorant as best, which is better than the views the dark eldar take. Chaos, well... Nids and Necrons might as well be classified in the same category. They just want to kill everything. Orks just live and well love to fight everything.

Some good points have been raised, some of which I'd agree with. Most notably the chapter books. Really, the plain jane codex is great as it is, and while there are some issues with it, I think in the end it's flexible enough to allow for some decent diversity.

As to the painting thing. I think the marines get the rough end of the shaft here. Because there are more marine players there is always going to be a larger number of undesirable elements in that group. That doesn't mean it's exclusively a marine problem. I know of several players who routinely purchase the "army of the moment"* throw a hasty three color paint scheme on it and play them until folks figure out how to beat them. One guy locally has had 6 armies in as many months. None of which were marines, nor were any painted spectacullarly. Most of the rules lawyers and the like locally are playing Chaos and were quite disgruntled when their alpha legion/demonette/demon bomb armies were made unusuable in the new codex. It certainly doesn't mean that I hate all chaos players, nor that I hate chaos in general.


I guess I'd rather see folks trying to help people get into the game and encouraging them to enjoy the full breadth of the hobby as opposed to bashing their army choice. We all want to enjoy this and have fun, and I think that is the most important part.
 

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I hate most chaos players. Most of them get into chaos for the "bad boy/evil is fun" image. It gets old.
 

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I just play chaos for the diversity of the models and what you can field. I can swap out several squads and use different tactics while keeping the same paint job. Evil, is just a perception. I view what the Emperor did as evil. He did try to cleanse the stars of everything xenos.
 

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Maybe I just spent most of my time playing the older Chaos codex armies. I saw more SM and CSM armies started in the 3 years I actively played 40k than any other army. It was pathetic. A 16 army tourney list would be: Blood Angels, Iron Warriors, Death Guard, White Scars, World Eaters, Vanilla marines, Blood Angels with Inquisitor, Wraithlord Eldar, Biel-tan Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Tau, Imperial Guard, Imperial Guard, one Ork player and one 'nids player. The ridiculous amount of 3+ save armies fielded in a tourney turned me off the game for a long time. I was getting beaten in 2nd turn by these cheesed out min/max lists. Maybe it was my tactics. Who knows? I got tired of playing against armies I knew I couldn't beat.
 

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Space Marines are considered to be a very Nooby army, because everyone starts out with them. Also, being GW's poster boys they are very, very overpowered with the average Space Marine trooper having a 3+ save. So naturally, people at the butt end of the space marines (particually 'nids) are pretty miffed.

Also, there are like a billion 12 year olds with them. Go figure.
 

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I play Dark Angels, even other Marines tend to hate DA, and it's simply because we are that good. In all seriousness, I've lost to 'Nids, I've lost to Orks, I've been absolutely thrashed By Necrons and I've lost to Guard on many occasions.

At different times, I've also beaten all of those armies (except the Necrons, only played them once and they blew me well and truely to hell), and funnily enough, whenever I win, I get heaps of of smart arse comments about DA and Marines in general. I don't take the game as seriously as some people so I just laugh it off.

I play Dark Angels cause I like them, I guess you play your army for the same reason, so stop bitching about it.
 

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Space Marines are considered to be a very Nooby army, because everyone starts out with them. Also, being GW's poster boys they are very, very overpowered with the average Space Marine trooper having a 3+ save. So naturally, people at the butt end of the space marines (particually 'nids) are pretty miffed.
Space marines are no more over powered than any other army.
 

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I play Chaos...Deathguard. The new codex is a boring empty shell. I used to play a pure Deathguard army with no cheese and loved all o the options(wargear, demonic gifts and vet skills) we now have none of that. The four cult Legions have been reduced to troop choices and the other first founding traitors an their rules are gone. Ill admit that chaos had its issues in the last Codex, but all armies have their problems(cheese). If Chaos were so broken then why didnt a Chaos player win all of the grand tournaments and whatnot? Because other cheesed out armies won...Tau and Eldar come to mind. I didnt win every game I played, I won more than I lost ...60%-40% win\loss perhaps. Id say Im an above average player also.Now choas in hollow and boring and you non-Chaos players are still bitching...come on guys give it a rest. Hate the players(cheese masters) not the army.
 

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It's a few factors, really.

First is popularity. They are the posterchildren of 40K for GW, and since it is cool to hate GW if you are a 40K gmaer as it makes you rebellious, it is subsequently cool to hate Marines. They are also highly popular choices, and it is also cool to hate things that are popular as it makes you rebellious.

Second is sheer number. There are so damn many of them, often close to identical, that you really do get sick of them. On the other hand, this makes well-done armies much more exciting to play.

Third is the illusion that they are somehow overpowered. While it is very unlikely this is true, and even if it is it would be a margin so small as to not really be significant, it is still a strongly-held belief for many people. People will frequently hate that which they believe is unbalaced, 'cheesy', or unfair, and Marines are that to many people, whether or not they should be.
 

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I find this comment supremely ironic, considering the fact that you list 3(!) space marine armies and a chaos space marine army (which are only marginly more acceptable) as armies in you sig. Point made? I think so.
I'm not seeing your point here. I'm for the most part the poster child for the non-competitive 40k player. In something like 18 years, I've always come back to Space Marines for the simplicity of their rules, and the clean painting surface to work with. My first army was Eldar actually.

Whoever made the points about hatred due to poorly painted models and tendancy to be played by asshats, good point. Well made.
Or new players/ hobbyists. Does that mean all new players are asshats? What about kids or those who simply aren't good painters? That's like saying painters who paint well are all effete snobs, or painting things in red makes it go faster.

To all the space marine spammers on this site, the gauntlet has been laid down. Us space marine haters have made our arguments (quite eloquently and articulately i might add). I'd like to see some real counter arguments. Not just knee jerk reactions of 'No no! Its not true i tell you! Youre all wrong!'
My own opinion is that a lot of the reasons you're posting : homoeroticism, pedophilia, is entirely an interpretation and a matter of perspective. You can read anything in to anything. Seriously: look at fanfic and slashfic specifically. How many people have their own little interpretations of Harry Potter and his love interests, from Cho Chang, to the Weasleys, to Severus Snape and Dumbledore. Where the hell do they come from? People like to take something and spin it according to their own rose colored glasses.

Some of the stuff you mentioned IS present. The Space Commies/ Tau-iban. The empire is a horrible fascist state, no doubt. That IS ironic.

Ultramarine players: There is a special hell reserved for you.

Get some individuality, all of you.
I'm doing Pre-heresy Ultramarines. Ultramarines are pretty much universally reviled by 40k players. Probably because they are seen as vanilla, non-flavored. Part of my choice in playing pre-heresy Ultramarines is directly due to that. I'll be damned if anyone tells me what I can or can't play, and since nobody else will do it, I'll take something bland and make it cool. Hence the pre-heresy bit.

With the pre-heresy, and pre codex astartes I can get a bit more creative with my paint scheme. That and I get to use all the old school bits I've been hording for ages. I get to do some cool kitbashing to make things look a bit older and really make an essentially simple force a bit more diverse.

In defense of Ultramarines and Space Marine Players everywhere, one thing I enjoy, is the organization of the Space Marines. Nice and neat. After so many years in the military, having my company all lined up is kinda cool, squad by squad, neat uniform look.

Space Marines have a very clean appearance, and for new (well...and old alike) it's very nice to have a clean palate to work with. Where some people see vanilla, I see an opportunity to create diversity.

The end result is, people who play space marines do so because they enjoy it and really, if others hate it...who cares?

Where's the individuality for anyone?
What Eldar are creative? You have a codex and paint schemes. Lots of nice neat paint schemes. Oooh! You can alter it to be like your craftworld! Space Marines do that as well by creating DiY chapters. Tyranids! Dude, it's the same figs, painted a bit different, so where's the big difference? Tau? Necrons? Meh, it's all the same, and all has the essentially same opportunities for individualism or blandness.
 

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I personally don't see anything wrong with playing SM even after you've been playing for a while. I like not having to worry about too many complicated perks and powers, but at the same time, having a sturdy, balanced fighting force. And I think that the only reason that the Ultramarines are overplayed is because it's easiest to look on the boxes that the models come in and see good UM paint-job examples. Having said that, I would still rather play Blood Angels any day.
 

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My only problem with seeing so many space marine armies is that space marines are supposed to be Elite, few not 50% + of what I see. I can see why they are used a lot as the army is quite forgiving of tactical mistakes. However how can Space MArines be 'Elite' forces when they outnumber entire races ;)
 

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Another part of the hatred is the irony of it all. Space marines are the emperors chosen, never seen outside a battlefield, and rarely seen on one, except in the most dire need. However, if you totalled up all the armies from all the games systems from all the players across the world, over 50% would be space marines. There is'nt any mystery when all you see everywhere are space nazis in power armour. Eugenicised indoctrinated pinnacles of the human race, bred to commit genocide on an apocalyptic scale upon anyone even slightly different. If Hitler played 40k they would be his army of choice. Not to mention the homoeroticism and the paedophilia, what with all the grooming of young initiates. Sexism, specieism. Basically, everything our society teaches us to deplore, theyve got it in spades.
i agree a few things you said, but i find this part of your post mildly offensive.
firstly, hitler's campaign of genocide was against other human beings; the space marines wipe out capricious, fickle, and universally evil alien races that see humanity in exactly the same light, if not worse.
secondly, i dont understand where the 'homoeroticism' remark comes from; the forces of war have been exclusively male since the very first fighting unit some x-thousand years ago, and the vast majority of them were in all probability straight
dont think im attacking you, though, as i agree with much of what you said otherwise; SM armies DO tend to be the worst painted and played by the youngest members of the hobby, and this fact i take advantage of whenever i can :p
 

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The homoeroticism comes from the role of the aspirant and neophyte (and even the scouts, to a greater or lesser degree.) They're...choir boys. If you read the fluff carefully, it's implied that there's some molesting going on.
 

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I think that marines get all the hate partly because they are an idiot-proof army. Any moron with their poorly painted, out-of-the-box, ultramarines. Can luck their way into slaughtering a much better player without any vague semblance of a strategy passing through their skulls.

Being Idiot-proof is also why GW gives the marines so much attention. It seems that the marines (by no fault of their own) are also designed to be a 'fad' army for new players, hence all the spin-off codexes(did i spell that right:scratchhead:). Designed to look really cool so they draw in younger players, (with their flashy hollywood backstory) and then get boring after the initial spending spree, that is necessary to get going in the hobby nowadays.
In their defence some of the people that the marines attract(like myself) don't put their 300$ of paint and plastic on a shelf.

As a Space marine player, (not the ultramarines btw) I am somewhat saddened by all the attention that the marines get from GW. It has made the marines into a bunch of armour suits with little individuality and simple paint schemes. I enjoy having an army with a unique look, but Space Marines are Space Marines and they all start to look the same after a while.

In short, the marines don't deserve all the hate they get, it's not their fault someone else made them suck.
 
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