Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 20 of 47 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Trying to see if this comes up in the various game circles: getting shots lined up so you can only see an important model. An example would be your lascannon toting model and purposefully blocking LOS so that model can only see your opponent's las cannon toting model.

Personally, I don't see this kind of game style, but am well aware of how to successfully pull it off. To me, it seems a bit of a sportsmanship issue, but I'm curious to see what you folks (many whom are GT regulars) feel about it.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
801 Posts
It's quite obviously a sportsmanship issue. In the lore, you'd never see a SPace Marine moving so that an entire traitor squad minus one is obscured by trees and a nearby tank. You don't have Dreadnoughts turning 180* to fire so that the shot can only hit a power fist model. You certainly don't have a Land Raider Crusader opening up with a friendly Rhion in front of it so that the clustered special weapons of a Conscript platoon are the only things that can be hit.

More importantly, these things do not happen because they do not make sense. The only reason this mockery of the game can exist at all is that to make specific rules against it would require a ruleset to make the entirety of second edition look like the BFM 'rulebook'.

Since this activity requires that one ignore every single aspect of the game but the end score, and because it is both obvious and impossible to do accidentally, it is the very limit of cheesegamery. It's worse than even deliberate modifications of vehicles for gaming advantage, since it doesn't even require additional time investment to do.

If I were to find my opponent using this tactic, I would briefly (by my standards) explain precisely why this rule indicates the living incarnation of cheesegaming, and, should they continue, end the game and never play the person again. That sort of abominable gamership is among the worst sort that an opponent can unleash short of physically damaging your models, and I would rather cease all involvement with the hobby than resort to this appaling 'tactic' myself.

And now to wait for one of the aforementioned to claim I'm taking the game too seriously, that anything allowed by the rules system is sportsmanlike because otherwise GW would prevent it, and that I'm obviously a whiny crybaby who loses to underpointed newbies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
137 Posts
To me its a balance for the fact that the lascannon guy is always the last to die, the power fist toting sergeant can hide behind nine of his mates whilst still swinging his fist at a warboss and not be hit back directly, etc.

So yes i do and i fully expect my opponent to do it all the time as well. Guess im a cheesegaming, totally unsporting, rules lawyering scum of the earth then.
 

·
Powered by Squig Tea
Joined
·
7,589 Posts
On the whole with this sort of thing I tend to 'do unto others as they do unto me'

But no its a stinky way to play and very un-sportsman like and I try to avoid playing people who do this sort of thing just to win.

Losing is good for you as a person and a gamer, it forces you to change, improve your army and tactics.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
333 Posts
Viscount Vash said:
On the whole with this sort of thing I tend to 'do unto others as they do unto me'

But no its a stinky way to play and very un-sportsman like and I try to avoid playing people who do this sort of thing just to win.

Losing is good for you as a person and a gamer, it forces you to change, improve your army and tactics.
Indeed, and using sniping is one such tactic. Its perfectly legitimate, and well supported in the rules.
If you want to moan about realism, then I assume you'll roll a dice for casualties in each squad and those with the lowest scores take the wounds and are killed. After all, thats a good way to randomise shooting casualties and make it more realisitic. Whats that? You want to keep the guy with the big hand and take a bolter caddy off instead? Cheese!!

If you want to avoid sniping, don't move all of your weapons to the front and edges of your squads. You may want to get better shots for next turn or move your fist guy to get in B2B, but be aware you may pay the price.

Ever use torrent of fire? Torrent of blows? Is it realistic to force you to take one save on a specified model? No, but neither are flying space elves. Ever pulled casualties out of range of the powerfist/IC so it can't strike at a different I level? Same applies.
These are tournament level tactics and are quite legitimately used in that level of game. If you want a fluff-fest then go for it. But if two like-minded gamers are playing a league or tournament type game, or if you use any of these sort of things above, then don't be surprised if sniping happens.

Oh and before someone mentions the use of 2 rhinos to allow a lascannon to snipe a model, if someone wants to do that, and lose both rhinos and then lose the lascannon as I snipe it back, be my guest. Its a bad tactic from a strategic sense, never mind anything else.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
131 Posts
Me too! :D
 

·
Porn King!!!
Joined
·
8,137 Posts
Never bothered with it myself. Seems to be too much hassle in my mind.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
630 Posts
So yes i do and i fully expect my opponent to do it all the time as well. Guess im a cheesegaming, totally unsporting, rules lawyering scum of the earth then.
I'd say that go's for the whole of FLAME ON! then! :lol:
To me It's perfectly fine to go sniping, when you set up that annihilator to go for the side armour of another vehicle Instead of the front Is that not a type of snipe and unsporting? I don't think so. I suppose It all comes down to what level of gaming your used. I generally play on a weekly basis against the flame on lot with the games tending to be on a competetive/friendly basis (90%) where all the tricks come out of the bag so these type of tactics become second nature.

These are tournament level tactics and are quite legitimately used in that level of game. If you want a fluff-fest then go for it. But if two like-minded gamers are playing a league or tournament type game, or if you use any of these sort of things above, then don't be surprised if sniping happens.
Couldn't have said It better myself! :)
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
801 Posts
Vehicles and the like are fair game, since it's not a direct contravention of 40K fluff and 40K physics. There's probably a situation in which you can advance yourself at the cost of the game by shenanigans, but I've yet to see it.

As for the kills, the inherent concept behind it in third edition was that, not only is combat so chaotic as to render it impossible to shoot one individual without shooting every individual (there's your Torrent of Fire), but the soldiers in it not stupid, and intelligent enough to pick up the Flamer or Storm Bolter or Plasmagun that the horribly wounded man in front of them just dropped.

On the other hand, we have this super duper tactic, where the bullets magically zero in on a single person in a squad that is running, ducking, jumping and taking cover, just because you're stupid enough to shoot with your own tank in the way.

I'm not saying I wouldn't expect it in a tournament game, because I'm too grizzled to expect anything from a tournament game. My stopping play was for more casual games, which nobody needs to win that bad. I still wouldn't do it in a tournament.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
432 Posts
I consider myself a pretty sporting person, but don't see much wrong with sniping. As much goes on the other player for not protecting his model.

I've only really seen this happen with sergeants that are leading from the front. You'll get them just slightly off a corner and can position to get just him, that would be a realistic battle tactic as the take off the head and the body dies tactic.

I haven't seen it, but I don't see it unsporting to get the Lascannon guy either. You would want to find a way to take out the biggest threat and if you can zero in on the guy, then you would realistically.

It's somewhat the same concept of fire saturation (which is the one 4th ed rule I just never see used) where if you wound enough to cover the squad you can pick out the model to take the first armor save. Isn't that sort of the same analogy?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
221 Posts
If you can pull off the sheer amount of micromanagement, more power to you. I see it as whoring the rules, and therefore don't use it. That and it's just not my style. If I have to do something like that to win, my list isn't built right.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
432 Posts
I don't think it takes that much micromanagement in the way I'm describing it. I'm talking about if theres a piece of terrain and you can move enough to clip just one or two models, that really doesn't take much to do. I'm also not saying its right or wrong, and I can't say I would look down on someone for doing it to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
41 Posts
I have lost 3 lascannons from a singel squad in a singel turn in a turnament with this tactic. Insted of crying chees I thought "hey, next time I dont set up the heavy weapons forward in the squad". I think if a person sees an oppertunety to kill of some better model, go for it.
In my mind it is the same ting as shooting at an havoc squad to kill heavy weapons instead of an all bolter troop squad.

I dont do it myself by the way...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
432 Posts
and that was my note above, that sniping is the responsibility of the sniped player as well as the sniping player. You need to take care of your important models in a squad, and you don't have to worry about sniping. Why aren't your lascannons in the middle or back of the squad?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
41 Posts
First turnament... I thought it look't cooler with the guns up front. This happend in 2003 and my tactics and deployment has improved some since then. I think you learn more from having a good player slap you around with good tactics, than from a bad player you crush. I manage a draw becuse ha charge my dread with his dread in the last turn couse we tought it would look great. If he had killed mine he would have scored a minor victory, if I had killed his(witch I did) it become a draw and if nether had died he would have won. It goes to show that even if you tries to win you can still do (perhaps stupid) things that makes for a great battle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
333 Posts
I have lost 3 lascannons from a singel squad in a singel turn in a turnament with this tactic. Insted of crying chees I thought "hey, next time I dont set up the heavy weapons forward in the squad". I think if a person sees an oppertunety to kill of some better model, go for it.
Well said that man. To be honest, it doesn't happen very often (maybe its because everyone I play knows not to put their useful model on the edge/front of a unit) but when it does, you learn from it.
Its also a good tactic vs. those player who moveeverything 6" and somehow move both plasma guns from the back to the front of the unit. After they get range sniped a couple of times, they don't tend to do it again.

It often happens unintentionally, I once played a GK player who ended up with each Justicar in 3 squads inadvertently sniped because my Shrouding rolls meant that they were the only models that could be seen.

A similar but different tactic is the IC snipe. As most players use the IC rules to protect them from fire, manouvreing so that the IC is the only or closest target and then shooting it can often surprise less experienced players who think that its safe. I know after it kept happening to me I thought long and hard about where I put mine and (more importantly) it made me a better player.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,602 Posts
I agree with everyone :D

If i'm playing an experienced player who likes to play competatively, i'll snipe a few models if they give me the oppertunity. If i'm playing someone out for fun games or is inexperienced with the rules i won't do stuff like that and will even do stuff like leave guys in B2B so his fist can still attack etc....

Now what Is a powergaming abuse of the rules would be to set up in the unassaultable formation. If someone did try that then i would not be best pleased :evil:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Thanks for all the replies.

I've found a super easy, mobile way of sniping and wondered if I should pull this trick out or not. Locally, I don't really see it, but I do see lots of min/max style lists. I just feel a little dirty about trying it out.

I was looking at ways to vary my Eldar and found a Wraithlord (or Avatar) plus Maugan Ra or an Autarch on a Jetbike with a Reaper Launcher right behind peeping out just enough to draw some, ahem, interesting LOS to specific models, and still receive IC protection so they can't even be shot back at.

Jigplums-I agree about the unassaultable formation. I'd draw the line of absurdity at that point.
 
1 - 20 of 47 Posts
Top