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Discussion Starter #1
The SM fluff seems really inaccurate ingame. For one, they are meant to be one-man killing machines (for example, in 'Space Wolves' (the book) a single marine takes down a predator on his own), but they are, IMHO, a bit... Mediocre for the points cost. Also, bolters are meant to be Uber Killy Death and make a hole 'big enough to fit a fist through' and they are not that good.

I think that, in keeping with fluff, Marines should be MUCH better but cost a lot more points. I don't have marines, but this would also give marine players the advantage of what used to be a combat patrol being about 1k point!
 

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In the game i think they are accurate given the scale. Imperial guardsmen have the basic stats of normal humans so strength 3 toughness 3 etc space marines have +1 stats to pretty much everything they also ignore the majority of every races armour which is correct when you think about what a bolter should do. Everything about them is better than standard troops. Wasn't it ragnar blackmane who destroyed the predator i would hardly call him a normal marine.

a ten man space marine squad walking up to a unit of guardsmen is like the nemesis in resident evil taking out that STARS team. 20 shots hitting on 3 killing on 3 with no army save now how isn't that good :p

(Not sure if i'm allowed to posts actual stats and how to kill guardsmen so if i ain't please moderate :p)
 

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Those stats are okay-- GW doesn't want full rules, stat blocks, etc-- just saying a guardsman is S and T 3 isn't going to get anyone in trouble unless GW's web surfers have a particularly thorny stick up their bums, and let's face it, they're not THAT mean.

Astartes don't even begin to reflect what they do in the fluff. In WD300, they made "Movie Space Marines" rules that were purely for fun, and they're significantly more accurate to what Space Marines would actually do if you played to the fluff. A Tactical Squad is supposed to be able to take on ten times their strength and come out on top... which is roughly 2000 points' worth of Guardsmen.

If you completely ignored the fact that Space Marines are as they are so the game is playable with them and not horribly, horribly, horribly unbalanced, I'd think their profile should look something like this:

WS/6
BS/5
S/5
T/5
W/1 (or 2 with no Feel No Pain)
I/4
A/2
Ld/10
Sv/3+
Points/ 45 points/model

Feel No Pain, True Grit, Stubborn, And They Shall Know No Fear
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
If you completely ignored the fact that Space Marines are as they are so the game is playable with them and not horribly, horribly, horribly unbalanced...
I understand that to make them 'real' they would be immensely overpowered, but i dont see why they cant make them immensely overpowered but make their points cost stupidly high to compensate. So ok a 10-man squad with the stats you said (maybe more points tho) is pwnage, but if the opponent can buy 50 genestealers or 4 baneblades or w/e then thy are not overpowered while being more fun and 'realistic' tto play.

By the way, when i sed 50 genesteales or 4 baneblades, it was an example, not based on actual points cost.
 

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>> I get what youn sayin, but when you look at basic troops eg guardsmen are about 8pts each, whereas a marine is 14+, dependant on chapter. So thats 6pts difference, squads are smaller, bolters will fook any normal troop even other marines. I think the 6pt difference is good, cos you paying 1pt extra per +stat. Just my thoughts, so please dont hate....or I'll take yer eyes.
 

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I think the in game ability of a Space Marine is spot on. They have equal strength to a genestealer... You have to keep things in perspective; in every novel I've read featuring them, they are always slaughtering chaos heretics using autoguns and clubs. They are going to seem extremely powerful! In 'real' life marines fight in close quarters, tight situations in which a pitched battle can't be fought. They don't generally march across an open battlefield facing Lascannons and Demolishers. They find a way around such situations and turn the situation to their favour. Play a game with 20 Marines with boltguns vs 100 Guardsmen with Lasguns on a cover strewn battlefiled and see what happens.

Any marine with krak grenades could damage or destroy a Predator tank. I haven't read the Space Wolf books (aren't they some of the worst?) but examples of this in novels represent very lucky dice on the table. I thought Ragnar (if indeed it is him) had a power sword that could glance the rear armour on a Predator anyway? Probably wrong as I don't have the Codex to hand...

An important thing to remember, is that an Imperial guardsmen does not represent a 'normal' human. He is the ultimate soldier. They are vastly superior to your run of the mill mercenary and compared to the average human working a 9-5, they would be a world apart. Read the Gaunt Novels, think of heroic charaters from films and remember, NONE of them would be more powerful than a Guard armie's leader. The Squad from Predator, for example, is nothing more than a squad of Guardsmen on the 40k table.

As for the boltgun comments. This gun fires a mass reactive shell that explodes when it nears an object. Remember all those films when the hero takes a hit, losing fingers, taking a gut shot or losing an eye, and keeps going? There's a 33% chance of that happening.
It has a 66% chance of putting a Guardsman totally out of action, end of. I think it is a hell of a weapon.
 

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I think one part of the misunderstanding is that Space Marines, while the epitome of human achievement in eugenics, bionics, and technology...is up against the best the universe has to offer.

All the "average" races are gone. They were wiped out during the Great Crusade. Left behind are The Eldar (who are vastly superior to a human being), Orks, vastly superior, Necrons, vastly superior, Tyrannids VASTLY SUPERIOR, etc. Imperial guard are simply humans, and woefully outgunned in this universe...that's why they die by the horde (and why they are cheap).

Anongst these remaining forces...Astartes are only average, and IG are below average.
 

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So how do the Tau fit in then? They strike me as just surviving because Humanity is trying to beat the Tyranids and that leaves them too occupied to fight the Tau.
 

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look at the fluff for other armies, read any of the gaunt's ghosts books, the tanith are about ten times better than marines. Mkoll their chief scout, even manages to out hunt a dark elder mandrake and then kill him, IN CLOSE COMBAT. Gaunt kills a choas dreadnought in the same book. And as for the lasgun in the gaunt's ghost series, it's deadly. just think of fluff as entertainment.
 

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Gaunt didn't kill a dreadnaught he cut into it then the flamers burned the corpse inside alive.

Tau are lucky the only "cursade" thats been lead against them was small compaired to what is usually sent ( include Scythes of the Emperor which has one company lol..)

Basicly the imperium isn't bothered with them yet since the tau ain't really threatening, if the imperium decided to go back to its old ways like the crusade, the tau would be wiped out even with the intervention of the eldar who see them as their last hope for piece.
 
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