[vonklaude]

HQ
Pedro Kantor
Master of the Forge with CB

TROOPS
5xScouts with 5xcc, MB
5xScouts with 3xsniper, ML, Telion

ELITES
9xSternguard with 2xcombi-melta, 2xflamer, MB, Rhino
10xSternguard with 2xcombi-melta, 2xflamer, MB Rhino

HEAVY
1xVindicator
1xVindicator

The above comes to 1340pts. I want to put a unit (not sternguard, they're for attacking) with MotF, and I could afford Devastators with 2xLC, or Tactical with perhaps a TLLC Razorback, or perhaps just a couple of servitors. What would you put with the MotF? Any other advice also most welcome.

 

[overlordsson]

i dont play space marines but with the left over points maybe try to fit a dreadnought in there with a assult cannonk:

 

[sanguinius noob]

with the MOTF, a bike is excelent if he's running by himself, if i were you i would go both scouts with sniper rifles or bolters as ccb scouts are not good at anything!

i would drop the mb's and make the sternguard 3 combi-melta's each and then 2 combi flamers aswell, as 2 combi-meltas has the chance to do nothing.

drop telion and then get yourself a unit of dev's with 3 lascannons and drop a scout squad and make razorback (or rhino) tactical squad.

i know this is alot of change but they're only a large collection of suggestions haha!

hope this helps

 

[overlordsson]

or correct me if im wrong but or you could maybe see if you could get a thunderfire cannon, for what they do is awesome with any space marine army.

 

[Deuce]

If you want devastaters as well as bodies to accompany the MotF why not get servitors and equip them with Heavy weapons. its the cheaper then devs and serves a double purpose.

 

[vonklaude]

with the MOTF, a bike is excelent if he's running by himself, if i were you i would go both scouts with sniper rifles or bolters as ccb scouts are not good at anything!

i would drop the mb's and make the sternguard 3 combi-melta's each and then 2 combi flamers aswell, as 2 combi-meltas has the chance to do nothing.

drop telion and then get yourself a unit of dev's with 3 lascannons and drop a scout squad and make razorback (or rhino) tactical squad.

i know this is alot of change but they're only a large collection of suggestions haha!

hope this helps

Thank you, this helps. Exchanging the MBs for combi-melta makes a lot of sense: I will do that. Combi-flamers also.

I want to try Telion in another battle or two before I drop him. We RAI that his Stealth conveys stealth to the squad: meaning that his price is discounted slightly (15pts, the cost of camo cloaks). At effectively 35pts he is pretty good.

MotF on a bike is a great idea. I need to get myself some bikes. Meanwhile I will try Devastators. What do you think of Deuce's suggestion to try servitors with heavy weapons? I have a Thunderfire Cannon awaiting painting, so will also try Overlordsson's idea too - perhaps in my next battle.

 

[lsarofeen]

seems anyone with range is going to slow you and then take you out before you get any shots off. vs a smart player you wont get any effective shots until the 3rd turn, what's left alive anyway.

i'd lessen your number of sternguard per squad to 6 and drop the vindies for autolas predators, not dreads, as you only have the option for 3 elites. i'd also get rid of the motf.. whats he doing anyway? a hopeful shot for way to many points? ( i say way to many because your running pedro whose not cheap. )

if your running a scout squad CC, add in a powerfist and (though i dont have much exp. with it) maybe run them in a speeder storm for mobility and the heavy flamer option.

I don't know about running flamers in sternguard, can't you just run heavy flamers and have a greater strength/ap for little more points? Melta bombs might help you but i'd say rarely.

I don't know where that leaves you for points but consider ranged support/targets so you actually get your sternguard in close enough to do the damage they are good at dishing out. I run 2 squads of 6 with 4-5 combimelta and 1-2 melta guns, only 6 guys to keep the clutter down, where if you disembark 10 d00ds your not likely to get shots with a number of them anyway and they ain't cheap in case of a tragedy.

Watch your back! and good luck!

 

[WarlordKaptainGrishnak]

I want to try Telion in another battle or two before I drop him. We RAI that his Stealth conveys stealth to the squad: meaning that his price is discounted slightly (15pts, the cost of camo cloaks). At effectively 35pts he is pretty good.

I'm not 100% on this, but a more 'in-the-know' member might be able to confirm.

To my understanding a USR can be lost if a unit is joined by a IC who does not also have the rule. And vice versa if a unit joins an IC who does not have the same rule.

Now Telion is Infantry, and replaces the Scout sergeant, so if i have 4 scouts and a sergeant, and telion replaces the SGT, the unit has one model with the Stealth USR. This will do one of 2 things imo, 1) Telion gives the rest of the unit the USR or 2) you only have to pay 12pts for 4 extra Camo Cloaks.

Again I'm not sure, and after thinking about it, it's quite confusing :headbutt:
If he does convey it though...I save 30pts off my Scouts :victory:

Grish

 

[vonklaude]

I'm not 100% on this, but a more 'in-the-know' member might be able to confirm.

To my understanding a USR can be lost if a unit is joined by a IC who does not also have the rule. And vice versa if a unit joins an IC who does not have the same rule.

Now Telion is Infantry, and replaces the Scout sergeant, so if i have 4 scouts and a sergeant, and telion replaces the SGT, the unit has one model with the Stealth USR. This will do one of 2 things imo, 1) Telion gives the rest of the unit the USR or 2) you only have to pay 12pts for 4 extra Camo Cloaks.

Again I'm not sure, and after thinking about it, it's quite confusing :headbutt:
If he does convey it though...I save 30pts off my Scouts :victory:

Grish

The rules are nicely murky, aren't they! Our reasoning is this. Imagine that contrary to what we believe, Telion does not give the unit Stealth. Let's consider that against the RAW.

1) By RAW if I buy cloaks at all, I must buy them for the squad. Telion is a member of the squad, therefore I must buy Telion a cloak. That gives him Stealth twice, which has no effect. Could RAW really want me to give a model Stealth twice?

2) By RAW a unit has Stealth, not the individual models in a unit. (ICs are an explicit exception.) RAW must mean either that all models organic to a unit must have Stealth if any models in the unit have Stealth, or no models organic to a unit can have Stealth if any model in the unit does not have Stealth. I can legally buy Telion without buying camo-cloaks. Could RAW really want Telion to lose his Stealth whenever the other models in the unit don't have camo-cloaks bought for them? Where do I find the rule that says that?

Taken together, we believe the following

A) It is thoroughly confusing to read RAW that Telion has Stealth only if the rest of the modesl in the unit are bought camo cloaks. That asks us to mentally revise the Stealth special rule and the camo-cloak buying rule, and to make up a new rule altogether that says an upgrade can lose a special ability in some general circumstances.

B) Conversely, if Telion's Stealth is for the whole unit, then not one rule in the book is breached. Every rule is able to stand as written.

In these murky matters one must accept that you'll have your own views and play by them. How you rule on Telion may shift him from marginal to playable, but whatever you prefer there is always 'The most important rule!' to fall back on... except in Tournaments

 

[Marshal Ragnar]

The stealth rule with Telion is REALLY confusing!! I just ussually buy the cloaks to save the headache. haha

re you going for more of a static gunline? or like a rapid move and shoot army?

But you have a decent list.

What id do is:
-Drop the MoTF and get a LC Pred
-Have the Sterngaurd in squads of six in razorbacks
-Get telion and sniper scouts. Either 2- 5 man or one 10 man
-Keep the Thunderfire Cannons. They are awesome!!! i run two like all the time
But vindis are good to, it depends on you play.
-Get a tac squad or two

I know its a lot, but they are just ideas. Take what suites your playing style more.

 

[vonklaude]

The stealth rule with Telion is REALLY confusing!! I just ussually buy the cloaks to save the headache. haha

re you going for more of a static gunline? or like a rapid move and shoot army?

But you have a decent list.

What id do is:
-Drop the MoTF and get a LC Pred
-Have the Sterngaurd in squads of six in razorbacks
-Get telion and sniper scouts. Either 2- 5 man or one 10 man
-Keep the Thunderfire Cannons. They are awesome!!! i run two like all the time
But vindis are good to, it depends on you play.
-Get a tac squad or two

I know its a lot, but they are just ideas. Take what suites your playing style more.

This list evolved out of two battles I just fought. It operates as a static heavy weapons line anchored on MotF, and a mobile Sternguard attack line anchored on Pedro. One flank is covered by Telion. The other Scouts are in reserve to bring on with outflank; hopefully to contest a victory point or melta a tank.

You and Isarofeen have made similar comments, and I think what you suggest is really interesting. I should have said that I am playing against IG a lot: how will the Predator do against a Leman Russ? (What I tend to be looking at is a couple of very heavy tanks shielding Chimeras.)

I like your idea for smaller Sternguard squads. If I just run the Razorbacks with HB I should be able to have 3x6 man squads with Razorbacks instead of 2x10 man with Rhinos. That would be very fighty and also have better mobility. I need to go check the costs. Thunderfire will be in. I wonder if I will have points for Tacticals?

Army Builder = useful!

 

[lsarofeen]

razorbacks don't allow you to shoot out of them with your sternguard, rhino lets 2. for tank busting i'd say your sternzies will be capable of that with melta, otherwise gear up with laz and hope one penetrates.

 

[CLT40k]

I don't think you'll have much of a chance to get your sternguard into an effective position. You don't have any real long range threats. A decent IG or SM list will eat this list.

Pedro is WAAAYYYY too expensive for a 1500 point game.

Don't run a thunderfire cannon and Devastators are prob. too expensive to run compared to the Autolas predator. Vindis are OK, but you HAVE to support them and it would fundamentally change your list.

MOTF is another too expensive model. You've just got too much tied up into HQ

If you continue to run MoTF, then he can give the scouts a 2++ when they go to ground. I would think that Tellion does NOT give his stealth to the rest of the squad - it's only 12 points to buy cloaks for the rest of the squad... But if you wanted to allocate wounds to him, then his Stealth USR is certainly in effect.

 

[vonklaude]

I don't think you'll have much of a chance to get your sternguard into an effective position. You don't have any real long range threats. A decent IG or SM list will eat this list.

Interesting point, and if true it is important for me to consider. I played the list this one is based on successfully against a partial-mech IG (2xLR, 2xChimera, some infantry). In that game I successfully advanced my SG into an effective mid-table piece of terrain. They got destroyed, but only after taking out more than their points in enemy units.

What IG list will give this SG list the most trouble?

Pedro is WAAAYYYY too expensive for a 1500 point game.

He is really expensive. His abilities are somewhat like a chapter master (125pts) with an improved chapter standard (>25pts?). Stubborn is probably a draw with CT. Is <25pts too much for for Hold the Line?

Don't run a thunderfire cannon and Devastators are prob. too expensive to run compared to the Autolas predator. Vindis are OK, but you HAVE to support them and it would fundamentally change your list.

You're right. I tried Devastators and they were awkward in play and didn't feel like they paid off in this list. As an aside, what do you advise as good support for vindis?

MOTF is another too expensive model. You've just got too much tied up into HQ

If you continue to run MoTF, then he can give the scouts a 2++ when they go to ground.

I got a lot of use from Bolster! My priority for MotF is long range firepower. CB is one of the few SM guns that can reliably kill LR at long range. Las struggles against LR front armour.

I would think that Tellion does NOT give his stealth to the rest of the squad - it's only 12 points to buy cloaks for the rest of the squad... But if you wanted to allocate wounds to him, then his Stealth USR is certainly in effect.

I'm comfortable with our ruling on Telion - until Workshop finally gets around to publishing a clarification! In the best case, Telion is saving you 30pts (cloaks for a 10 man squad). If you and I played we'd have to roll off for whose interpretation applied

 

[lsarofeen]

here's my 1500pt sternguard army, basically,

librarian
6xstern, combimeltas w/rhino
6xstern, combimeltas w/rhino

10xtac w/lazorback
10xtac w/lazorback

3xlandspeeder typhoon

3xpredator las-sponson

gg gl

 

[vonklaude]

here's my 1500pt sternguard army, basically,

librarian
6xstern, combimeltas w/rhino
6xstern, combimeltas w/rhino

10xtac w/lazorback
10xtac w/lazorback

3xlandspeeder typhoon

3xpredator las-sponson

gg gl

Thank you for posting that. Do you mean the rhinos and lazorbacks the other way around?

I have everything needed for that list except the Predators. I'm really going to have to think about buying some!

 

[CLT40k]

nope, he going to combat squad the tacs and the sterns will shoot from the rhino hatch.

 

[vonklaude]

Actually, I realise Predator is the right choice for the tactics I want to employ. I want to work with a rear firebase and a forward mobile element. MotF still works due to the opportunity cost of the HQ (minimum is 100pts, so for 20pts I get that extra long range threat). I don't have a strong case for a Librarian since I'm fighting IG w. little or no psykers.

Note that I cannot quite get Isarofeen's list to fit in 1500pts, but I know it was just an indication of what is possible.

HQ
MotF w. CB

TROOPS
10x Tactical, flamer, LC, combi-melta, razorback w. LC/TLPG
5x Tactical, combi-flamer, MB, razorback w. LC/TLPG
5x Scouts w. 3x sniper, 1x ML, Telion

ELITE
6x Sternguard w. 2x combi-flamer, 3x combi-melta, rhino
6x Sternguard w. 2x combi-flamer, 3x combi-melta, rhino

FAST
Landspeeder w. MM/HF
Landspeeder w. MM/HF

HEAVY
Predator w. LC sponsons
Predator w. LC sponsons

So that's what I'm going to try. The Predators will sit back near the MotF, who will be attached to the combat squadded marines (the LC half of the 10-man squad. So the firebase will have 4xAC + 5xLC + 1xCB shots, and will contain a scoring unit in case it is sitting on an objective. The Razorbacks may hang back or may move forward, depending on how things look. Telion's squad will be placed in a bolstered ruin if possible, ideally at an angle to the long axis of the firebase's shots. The two 5-man tacticals (the other half of the 10-man squad, and the 5-man squad) will either support the Sternguard or move to objectives. The Sternguard, of course, will attempt to break my opponent's plan, or disrupt his troops on objectives. The 'speeders will probably DS in, but may tuck in behind advancing units to support them. We'll see how long that all lasts then... probably about one turn