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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
so was watching our local Skaven player today, guy is crushing the store armies to little bits in our campaign, he has the same tactic every game, and it brings up questions.

what he does: runs a level 4 seer and 3 engineers, usually first turn he spams skitterleap until he gets one of his engineers behind enemy lines then he either will use a doom rocket on a unit or use an engineer with a powerscroll to get the dreaded 13th to instantly wipe a unit...

my questions:
can the same spell be cast more than once a turn?(from dif casters)
do all skaven know atleast 2 spells?(skitterleap being the default spell and dreaded 13th known by all skaven?)

can dreaded 13th kill heroes outright?(it says infantry in the spell description)
when dreaded 13th goes off I overheard him telling a nightgoblin player that the fanatics would die first? that seems wrong to me, if it does'nt I'm guessing the fanatics would be auto triggered and smash the summoned skaven to bits?(hopefully)

thanks in advance guys.
 

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...well I'm a newbie so don't take me 100% but in the games I've played it is impossible for someone to cast the same spell multiple times in a turn. For the double whammy I do not believe that sorcerers can know the same spell

although I don't know if Skaven are special to that rule
 

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I "believe" that since there are three diff. engineers, then they rolled separately for their spells. All of them can replace a spell for skitterleap for free. Now so long as you have power dice, then each engineer can cast it once. So in your case, three casts for three guys, each engineer having one shot at casting it, but no more.

As for knowing two spells each. If he's a level two weird and paid the points for it, because the engineers aren't by default, then each caster can roll for two spells. I do believe the casters in the same army can use the same spells.

I play skaven and I find it hard to believe that a level 2 engineer can cast Dreaded 13th or that its available to him. I just started the army on my book isn't in front of me so lets hope a veteran skaven player can come around and clean things up.
 

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Well, if am reading your description of this guy's tactics correctly, then either he doesn't know the Skaven lores very well, or he is outright cheating. Either way, you and the rest of your gaming group need to get him straightened out.

First off, the Dreaded 13th Spell can only be taken by Grey Seers and Vermin Lords. If you look in the Bestiary section of the Skaven book, under the Grey Seers entry (p. 41), under the "Magic" heading, you'll see that the Seer's allowed to "substitute one spell for either Skitterleap or the Dreaded 13th Spell." The Vermin Lord's Entry (p. 40) has the same wording. Under the Engineer's entry (p. 58), however, their "Magic" entry reads "A Warlock Engineer can substitute one spell for Warp Lightning." Nothing about the Dreaded 13th at all.

Then, on the pages that describe the Skaven lores (pp 78-79), you'll notice that the Dreaded 13th spell cannot be rolled for- it's a bonus spell that can be taken if the Bestiary Entry allows it, but you can't get lucky and roll it up.

To answer one of your specific questions- no, every Skaven magic user does not know Skitterleap and/or The Dreaded 13th. The concept of "Signature Spells" just means that, if your Bestiary entry allows it, you may exchange one other spell for the Signature Spell, but it's not an addtional spell that you can take. To the best of my knowledge, the only mages in the game that get a bonus spell above and beyond what they can normally take is High Elf mages who, if they take High Magic, get Drain Magic as a bonus. To summarise, your opponent could substitute one of the spells he rolled for his Grey Seer for either Skitterleap or Dreaded 13th, but he doesn't get those 2 spells on top of his other rolled-for spells.

Finally, to clear up your second question up for you- no, the same spells may not be taken by multiple spell casters. Read p. 162 of your BRB- it'll clear it up. Basically, the only "duplicate" spell you can have in your army is one specifically mentioned in the lore descriptions or Bestiary entries- in your friend's case, that would mean he could double or triple-up on Warp Lightning if he wanted, but that's it. If you roll for the same spell for multiple wizards, you re-roll the die until you get a different spell. If you have all the spells before you run out of wizards, you extra spell slots are lost.

The stuff about the Fanatics being the first to die is just plain ridiculous. You can't kill the Fanatics first by shooting them with arrows. You can't kill the Fanatics first by landing a huge rock on their head or hitting the Gobbos with a cannon- why in the world would you think that they would be killed first by a spell? That's just ignorance of the rules or bullying people who don't know the rules very well. Either way, players that try to pull that kind of stuff anger me greatly. . .

I hope this helps. Good luck squishing those dreaded Skaven.
 

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As far as I can tell, warlock engineers cannot swap for skitterleap, they swap for warp lightning as specified in their entry. However, the grey seer could swap a spell for skitterleap, but would only be able to cast it once. Also with 3 engineers one of those is likely to roll skitterleap.

As for the dreaded 13th spell I think only engineers cannot get it but grey seers can swap to have it, so to answer your questions more properly:

Yes provided they both know the spell, which requires them to have bought it or swapped it, and since engineers cannot swap for it he cannot have skitterleap more than twice.

If he upgrades all his warlock engineers to be level 2 wizards they will know two spells; however he has to upgrade them - they could also be not a wizard or a level 1 wizard depending on how much he upgrades them (not a wizard as default). Skitterleap is not the default spell - different skaven wizards have different "signature" spells, for example the engineers can swap for warp lightning, not skitterleap, whereas grey seers can swap for skitterleap and 13th spell. Engineers I don't think can know the 13th spell.

I think any attached heroes would die, but I'm not sure, there could be something about that in the skaven FAQ which I haven't read.

I don't know the rules for Night Goblin fanatics, but I don't think they die first (in the same way as that you don't remove skaven assassins first). I would agree that they would be triggered by the appearance of the new skaven unit.

However, I've only just read the skaven book to answer this so haven't checked all magic items and other tricks he could possibly have that I haven't found, but I don't THINK there are any other ways.


EDIT: ninja'd :(
 

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Also as far as the night goblin player, thats a load of bull, nightgoblin fanatics are not in the game until their released, so to kill them he has to wipe out the unit enitirly to kill the fanatics

warp lightning can be cast multiple times from different engineers, as its their default spell.

Skaven know the same number of speels for their level, same as everyone else, with GS and VLs allowing you to replace one of your spells for the D13S. Skittleleap is one of the the default spell for GSs so you can choose to replace one of your rolled spells for it

If you have a man sized character in the unit that got D13S'ed it would die if the skaven player rolled high enough

It is a 25+ casting spell afterall
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
thx for the info guys, I'll be picking up a copy of the skaven book and giving it a read... and then dropping a nice little rules bomb on this chap next game, it seemed a bit wiffy when he said ALL skaven knew the 13th spell, but we go on an honor system at our club.
 

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To answer one of your specific questions- no, every Skaven magic user does not know Skitterleap and/or The Dreaded 13th. The concept of "Signature Spells" just means that, if your Bestiary entry allows it, you may exchange one other spell for the Signature Spell, but it's not an addtional spell that you can take. To the best of my knowledge, the only mages in the game that get a bonus spell above and beyond what they can normally take is High Elf mages who, if they take High Magic, get Drain Magic as a bonus. To summarise, your opponent could substitute one of the spells he rolled for his Grey Seer for either Skitterleap or Dreaded 13th, but he doesn't get those 2 spells on top of his other rolled-for spells.
Also, just to clear this up, there are actually a few more than just high elves - there's dark elves who get power of darkness as a bonus spell no matter what lore they take, and vampires who get invocation of nehek in the same way.
 

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Dreaded 13th is 25+ or you know Automatic Irresistible Force with a Power Scroll. It's a cheesy combo that'll wipe out a lot your best unit first turn but it's part of the game and you never know the miscast might kill him.

Aramoro
 

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Indeed, Power Scroll means everyone gets 1 unstoppable spell a game an just how violent that spell is depends on the Army (assuming you manage to roll a double on 6 dice, not easy not to)

Brets use it for Dwellers, Vampires use it for Purple Sun, Skaven use it for the !3th etc etc.

Aramoro
 

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To answer one of your specific questions- no, every Skaven magic user does not know Skitterleap and/or The Dreaded 13th. The concept of "Signature Spells" just means that, if your Bestiary entry allows it, you may exchange one other spell for the Signature Spell, but it's not an addtional spell that you can take. To the best of my knowledge, the only mages in the game that get a bonus spell above and beyond what they can normally take is High Elf mages who, if they take High Magic, get Drain Magic as a bonus. To summarise, your opponent could substitute one of the spells he rolled for his Grey Seer for either Skitterleap or Dreaded 13th, but he doesn't get those 2 spells on top of his other rolled-for spells.

Finally, to clear up your second question up for you- no, the same spells may not be taken by multiple spell casters. Read p. 162 of your BRB- it'll clear it up. Basically, the only "duplicate" spell you can have in your army is one specifically mentioned in the lore descriptions or Bestiary entries- in your friend's case, that would mean he could double or triple-up on Warp Lightning if he wanted, but that's it. If you roll for the same spell for multiple wizards, you re-roll the die until you get a different spell. If you have all the spells before you run out of wizards, you extra spell slots are lost.
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Not a scaven player here, but if skitterleap is a spell you can exchange for, it should not be limited to once per army. Also as a side note, I don't believe duplicates are re-rolled.

P.490 (8thEditionRuleBook) Second paragraph on the right.
- This seems to specifically say if rolling a duplicate, you choose another spell. Not re-roll on the chart.

P.490 (8thEditionRuleBook) Third paragraph on the right.
- This says that "Signature Spells" can be taken multiple times per army.
P.490 (8thEditionRuleBook) Top bulleted paragraph on the right.
- List an exemption from the "once per army" rule for any model that can exchange a spell for the spell in question.

Let me know if you know otherwise, I would be interested to hear it.
 

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For rolling spells, you choose one wizard and roll his spells. First you may change duplicates into a spell of your liking from the same lore. Then afterwards you may swap one spell for the signature spell. So for example, you roll a double 5 with a level 2 wizard. Then you may change one of the 5's into one of your liking, lets say 4. Then afterwards you may even swap that other 5 for the signature spell. The choosing of duplicates also counts when another wizard rolls the same spell.

As for once per army, BRB- pg 490 "Ordinarily, each spell can only be known once in the same army. The only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly...."

the signature spell may be taken by multiple casters as well as any spell of which is clearly explained in the armybook that the wizard may swap a spell to this one. So for example, a chaos army with two lvl 2's of Tzeentch may have Flickering Fire two times since they may swap any spell for Flickering Fire.

Multiples of the same spell are also allowed if the model has no choice over which spell(s) it knows. For example, Festus the Leechlord has a fixed spell (curse of the leper) and rolls randomly for his second spell. This means another Nurgle wizard can have curse of the leper, but then I think should a third wizard have curse of the leper he needs to change it.
 
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