[Shandathe]

And what else, pray, do you shoot your Meltaguns at?

Terminators, Tervigons and other assorted large gribblies, Wraithlords and similar pesky annoyances... Come to think of it, is there any problem that CAN'T be solved with Meltaguns?

And nobody will obscure their tanks with just 5 men, so it's irrelevant anyway. And this is all assuming your opponent has let a T3 Meltagun-armed squad in an AV11 tank get to within 6" of their vehicles, which isn't a good feature of the Dominions, it's a bad feature of your opponent.

Yep. Which is why I tend to leave hunting vehicles to the Seraphim and equip my Dominions with Flamers to flush out infantry on objectives. Both of which still works just fine and don't need any fancy schmancy Acts of Faith :grin:

 

[MidnightSun]

Terminators, Tervigons and other assorted large gribblies, Wraithlords and similar pesky annoyances... Come to think of it, is there any problem that CAN'T be solved with Meltaguns?

Green Tide and Tervigons

Meh, I'm not a Sisters player. Just seemed weird that people are complaining about their Act of Faith being better now.

Midnight

 

[Shandathe]

It's better in some situations. But the Dominion AoF has become situational enough that we get far less use out of it in the end, which makes it worse overall. In the WDex, getting Twin-Linked (even unreliably) was pretty awesome. It boosts both Meltaguns and Flamers and it's always worth having. Ignoring Cover only serves half the guns and then requires an enemy in specific condition to be useful.

However, though the AoF was nerfed a bit, the base squad is cheaper than before, can grab more Special weapons without adding more members, and you don't HAVE to buy the AoF-related upgrades or use it at all I probably won't spring for the additional AoF for them even when I do run them with Meltaguns - one use of Ignore Cover is plenty.

 

[MidnightSun]

It's better in some situations. But the Dominion AoF has become situational enough that we get far less use out of it in the end, which makes it worse overall. In the WDex, getting Twin-Linked (even unreliably) was pretty awesome. It boosts both Meltaguns and Flamers and it's always worth having. Ignoring Cover only serves half the guns and then requires an enemy in specific condition to be useful.

However, you should probably be running that weapon loadout most of the time, and enemy vehicles will be in cover most of the time if not all the time (I can only think of Soul Grinders that won't usually be in 5+ cover).

However, though the AoF was nerfed a bit, the base squad is cheaper than before, can grab more Special weapons without adding more members, and you don't HAVE to buy the AoF-related upgrades or use it at all I probably won't spring for the additional AoF for them even when I do run them with Meltaguns - one use of Ignore Cover is plenty.

One use of Ignore Cover is all you'll ever get anyway - if your opponent is leaving 5 T3 Meltagun-armed models running around his battleline, you've won anyway, so it's not an issue.

Midnight

 

[Zion]

I had a thought: if running Dominions full sized with 4 Flamers you've got 6 Bolters (or 5 Bolters and one Combi-Weapon) that benefit from Ignore Cover. Ignore Cover Bolters aren't bad against things that usually hide heavily in cover to avoid being AP'd (Guard, Nids, Orks, ect). I won't claim it's perfect, but it is a use.

 

[Words_of_Truth]

What about them with stormbolters, that's a lot of shots ignoring cover.

 

[Shandathe]

... I've no idea why enemy vehicles are getting so much Cover in your games. :shok: Admittedly, I tend to do my vehicle hunting with Seraphim anyway. Mobility rules :so_happy:

Running Dominions with Flamers is more generally useful, that hasn't changed. Four normal flamers outperform two twin-linked ones, and between the discounts on base unit and MM Immy it's actually cheaper than it was before :laugh:

And yes, hunting vehicles with Seraphim and Dominions running around with Flamers means I get no use out of either of their AoFs now. And it's not a big loss, though I may just replace the Dominions with Hand Flamer Seraphim.

 

[Zion]

What about them with stormbolters, that's a lot of shots ignoring cover.

True, but Flamers are the same cost and can hit more models (potentially, based on range and positioning, ect) than a Stormbolter can. I was just saying the Ignores Cover might not be for the Flamers but the other members of the squad instead.

 

[Zion]

... I've no idea why enemy vehicles are getting so much Cover in your games. :shok: Admittedly, I tend to do my vehicle hunting with Seraphim anyway. Mobility rules :so_happy:

If vehicles aren't getting cover most of the time you might need more terrain.

Running Dominions with Flamers is more generally useful, that hasn't changed. Four normal flamers outperform two twin-linked ones, and between the discounts on base unit and MM Immy it's actually cheaper than it was before :laugh:

That's also a good point, flamers didn't get worse just because we can't re-roll wounds anymore.

And yes, hunting vehicles with Seraphim and Dominions running around with Flamers means I get no use out of either of their AoFs now. And it's not a big loss, though I may just replace the Dominions with Hand Flamer Seraphim.

Tank Hunting Seraphim weren't getting a benefit from their AoF last codex either, so it's no real loss honestly.

 

[Shandathe]

If vehicles aren't getting cover most of the time you might need more terrain.

Not hardly. It's just that Seraphim can play the "you're not in Cover from THIS side" game with astounding competence :grin: Can generally find a place where the Seraphim themselves are in cover as well. If a vehicle somehow survives 4 Inferno pistols, hey you're close anyway. Krak grenades and a spare Meltabomb will generally finish the job.

 

[MidnightSun]

If vehicles aren't getting cover most of the time you might need more terrain.

Or, you know, use the Smoke Launchers that come for 0pts on every vehicle ever.

Vehicles either have smoke launchers (because nobody, nobody lets Melta squads up close and chooses not to pop smoke), Jinking (either just an honest 5+ or enhanced by Disruption Pod or Holo Field), is bubblewrapped, or is under a Kustom Force Field. No army should be without cover on it's vehicles, except Daemons, because the Soul Grinder has a real big ass and the daemon smiths forgot to put smoke launchers on it.

Midnight

 

[Shandathe]

If a particularly shooty vehicle (generally among my first targets) chooses to pop smoke to try and stave of death by lots of melta, instead of getting off a last hurrah, I'm remarkably fine with that. Especially as it still tends to die.

 

[SilverTabby]

True, but Flamers are the same cost and can hit more models (potentially, based on range and positioning, ect) than a Stormbolter can. I was just saying the Ignores Cover might not be for the Flamers but the other members of the squad instead.

True, but in many cases I'd take a 24" range over an 8" one :wink:

 

[Svartmetall]

No army should be without cover on it's vehicles, except Daemons, because the Soul Grinder has a real big ass and the daemon smiths forgot to put smoke launchers on it.

That's why you make the Soul Grinder a Daemon Of Nurgle, so it gets Shrouded.

 

[Mokuren]

If a particularly shooty vehicle (generally among my first targets) chooses to pop smoke to try and stave of death by lots of melta, instead of getting off a last hurrah, I'm remarkably fine with that. Especially as it still tends to die.

Or that, yes.

If I'm playing against Eldar, I know one thing for sure: They move 12" and shoot with all the weapons they need to shoot with every time all the time and always have no less than a 5+ cover save regardless of terrain. If they're jetbikes, they also move 2d6" in the assault phase so they can shoot and then get behind a wall and lol no shooting back for you.

Also they have an effective range of 24"+, my effective range is 12-24", my meltas have 12" range and the models they're on move 6" per turn versus their 12".

Ignoring their cover save is the last of my concerns.

Even against other armies, popping smoke to not die against 4 meltas is probably the stupidest thing my opponent can do. If I'm in melta range, it means I can shoot 4 meltas and, in the unlikely case the vehicle survives, assault and krak and melta bomb his butt, which also nets me a few inches of very precious movement.

Long story short: it's a friggin' 12" weapon, if I'm close enough to use it against a vehicle, it's because he's either stupid or has nowhere to run, and at that point I don't care about his smoke launchers or the fact the entire game table is area terrain. If I'm close enough to be in melta range, I don't care even if he has 2+ cover.

And about storm bolters: No. At 5 points per model, no. "But!", you say, "You can once per game shoot at 24" away ignoring cover!", yes, and kill what? Imperial guard, kroots, cultists, orks? And to be really effective, I'd need a full squad of 10 with 4 storm bolters, and that costs me about as much as 4 meltas in an outflanking immolator with twin-linked multimeltas and doesn't help me one bit against vehicles, monstrous creatures, terminators and other nasties.

If you're that concerned about gunlines hiding behind walls and fortifications, why aren't you playing more Seraphim? They're still very good, and their hand flamers got halved in cost, and if you stick a melta bomb on their superior they're even decent tank hunters thanks to the fact they move twice as much as a dominion and jump over terrain.

No, I'm sorry, "Ignores cover" when your options are either meltas or AP5 weapons, one of which already ignores cover, is definitely a nerf when the previous option was "Twin-linked", at least because it didn't completely invalidate one out of three weapon options.

 

[Tawa]

True, but in many cases I'd take a 24" range over an 8" one :wink:

Wouldn't we all? :spiteful:

 

[SilverTabby]

To be fair, the only real use any of my stormbolter models get is as Sister Superiors in my Heavy Bolter Retributor squads. That way she at least gets a couple of shots a game.

One thing has amused me greatly with all the chatter regarding both this and the WDdex: when it came out, everyone wailed about losing the innate nullify of psychic powers as if it was the most important thing in the world, and destroyed the army. With this edition, we have it back, along with wargear designed to affect psykers, and all I hear is people complaining that psykers are so rare and crap that it's pointless having and paying for things that nullify them.

Not targetted at anyone, just an observation that made me smile in that head-shaking way...

 

[Shandathe]

To be fair, most of the complaints I saw about losing the innate nullify were more about fluff than missing it functionally.

As for the anti-psyker gear... if it was any good we'd probably take one or two along just in case of Eldrad or Doom of Malantai, but at 10 points for a single shot that will only do a single Wound I'd rather just toss an Exorcist barrage at it.

Let's not forget a Psyker will often be hiding out attached to a unit - and the Condemnor isn't a precision weapon. Doesn't do any good when he's in a transport either. It really only works when faced with Grey Knights and have a decently target-rich environment... and it'll still be skipped over in favor of another meltagun which can effectively do the same thing, except potentially causing Instant Death on lower T models and every round.

 

[Mokuren]

To be fair, most of the complaints I saw about losing the innate nullify were more about fluff than missing it functionally.

Yes. I remain that 40K psykers are only good for blessings and some hexes, and even then most armies don't really need them in the first place.

It's mostly the disappointment at seeing a new USR specifically about people being so adamant that they went "NO U" against psykers, just like sisters were in the old Witch Hunters codex, and right when they made a specific rule that seemed tailored right for them they don't have it.

It was a definite case of "dude WTF" rather than a lamentation on the loss of competitiveness.

As for the anti-psyker gear... if it was any good we'd probably take one or two along just in case of Eldrad or Doom of Malantai, but at 10 points for a single shot that will only do a single Wound I'd rather just toss an Exorcist barrage at it.

Let's not forget a Psyker will often be hiding out attached to a unit - and the Condemnor isn't a precision weapon. Doesn't do any good when he's in a transport either. It really only works when faced with Grey Knights and have a decently target-rich environment... and it'll still be skipped over in favor of another meltagun which can effectively do the same thing, except potentially causing Instant Death on lower T models and every round.

Yes. I'm sorry, but if you want me to be impressed at anti-psyker gear, give me what the inquisitors of the Ordo Hereticus have available from Codex: Grey Knights, or some of the old Witch Hunters gear. But a single shot per game at S5 AP- that will only do a single wound if it hits a psyker is nothing to write home about when you can have a meltagun at the same price that will most likely instagib said psyker and also be effective against terminators and vehicles, and fire more than just once per game.

Actually, no, it's just terrible. The Condemnor bolter is just the worst combi-weapon available in the entire game, it's extremely situational for one thing and for the other it comes at the same price as something else that will easily be more effective against the targets the Condemnor is supposed to be good at dealing with. And plenty of other non-situational targets.

 

[MidnightSun]

If I'm playing against Eldar, I know one thing for sure: They move 12" and shoot with all the weapons they need to shoot with every time all the time and always have no less than a 5+ cover save regardless of terrain. If they're jetbikes, they also move 2d6" in the assault phase so they can shoot and then get behind a wall and lol no shooting back for you.

Also they have an effective range of 24"+, my effective range is 12-24", my meltas have 12" range and the models they're on move 6" per turn versus their 12".

Ignoring their cover save is the last of my concerns.

Yeah, Eldar are just fucking broken, why even bother trying to mitigate some of their strengths, they'll just win anyway.

Even against other armies, popping smoke to not die against 4 meltas is probably the stupidest thing my opponent can do. If I'm in melta range, it means I can shoot 4 meltas and, in the unlikely case the vehicle survives, assault and krak and melta bomb his butt, which also nets me a few inches of very precious movement.

Since when has giving yourself protection ever been the stupidest option? If I see a meltagun-armed squad coming towards me, I'll shoot them and kill their 5-man T3 asses if I have any relevant gun or retreat and pop smoke if not.

Long story short: it's a friggin' 12" weapon, if I'm close enough to use it against a vehicle, it's because he's either stupid or has nowhere to run, and at that point I don't care about his smoke launchers or the fact the entire game table is area terrain. If I'm close enough to be in melta range, I don't care even if he has 2+ cover.

How effective is shooting a single Scatter Laser at a Terminator? Because firing four Meltaguns at a unit in 2+ cover is less effective than that. I know that's just hypothetical, but that 5+ adds another level of defence and reduces your damage by 33%. Even if it doesn't guarantee the vehicle's survival, it's significantly reducing your chances (even moreso if you're not within 6" range).

No, I'm sorry, "Ignores cover" when your options are either meltas or AP5 weapons, one of which already ignores cover, is definitely a nerf when the previous option was "Twin-linked", at least because it didn't completely invalidate one out of three weapon options.

Flamers got worse, Meltas got better, nobody takes Storm Bolters anyway. It's a nerf to the all-flamer unit, sure, but it's a buff to the all-melta unit, so it's not 'definitely a nerf'. It's a sidegrade.

If a particularly shooty vehicle (generally among my first targets) chooses to pop smoke to try and stave of death by lots of melta, instead of getting off a last hurrah, I'm remarkably fine with that. Especially as it still tends to die.

But it's a particularly shooty vehicle. You're getting your Av11 tank/5 T3 models within 6" how, exactly?

Midnight