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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There was an interesting situation (at least for me) in my LGS yesterday.

I was discussing 8th edition stuff with a few guys and at one point we came to the new items that can cause untold damage in one way or the other. I said that they can be circumvented to some extent if you single out the character that carries it, but then one of the guys said that in Fantasy you don't have to show your list to your opponent. He knew that in 40K you have to but he said that even in tournaments theres no rule that says you have to show your list to your opponent. I was like "WTF is this shit" and went through the rulebook in search for a line that would prove the guy otherwise. Unfortunately, I found no such sentence. :(

So I turn to you, fellow heretics: is there really no way that I could legally force my opponent to show his list to me? And what do you think about this issue in general? Its not just that I'm used to 40K but I think that trying to get an edge over your opponent by not giving him information about your army is the lowest and most disgusting thing I've heard of so far (yes, even worse then 8th ed Teclis :p). Of course I could simply refuse to play against someone with this attitude, but if tournaments work the same way then I must prepare for these situations and adapt.
 

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In tournaments, at least over here, you dont need to show your list, UNTIL you whip out your awesome weapon of magical killy. Just like if I field my WoC and his level 4 whips out the lore of metal, he needs to show me that it is actally metal he has on his list.
 

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Lists have always been kept secret in events ive been too, it adds flavour to the game by allowing cunning and guile. The only thing you can do is ask where an effect comes from when its revealed, ie the opponants unit is magic resistance 2 so you ask 'why' and he says 'it has the unit standard of MR2' or 'this character is MR2'; then all you have to do is try and pop they irritating ones.
 

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There are plenty of items that can reveal things hidden in units and magic items if your worried but from what I've seen most characters only really have 1 or 2 effective combo's and trawling the internet should cover most of the cut and paste armies you'll fight in tournies.
I don't really understand why you see not showing whats in your list as a bad thing most units are wysiwyg and there are no characters or items that really offer that much of a surprise except for a few gobbo dirty tricks maybe.
In the heat of a real battle it's unlikely that a hero's magic sword would instantly be recognisable to every one in it's opposing army it would be just another character with a scary looking sword.
 

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Empire Arcane Item: Crystal Ball (15 points): the enemy must always reveal all the 'secrets; involving all units that are withhin 24" of the Wizard at any time. This includes which magic items are in the unit and who is carrying them, the presence of disguised, hidden or otherwise 'invisible' models and everything else that the player is not normally obliged to disclose to his opponent.

Given that the item appeared in the 7E codex, I would speculate this is not a new thing. We have been showing each other our lists primarily because we don't have the correct models for all our units yet and it's helpful to remember what those models are.
 

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In the heat of a real battle it's unlikely that a hero's magic sword would instantly be recognisable to every one in it's opposing army it would be just another character with a scary looking sword.
Superb point.

I have always played without swapping lists unless the rules of an event specifically requested it; it always seemed better that way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Superb point.

I have always played without swapping lists unless the rules of an event specifically requested it; it always seemed better that way.
Then why are we playing with equal point limits? Its not realistic at all. :p I might be overreacting this - perhaps I've been playing too much DotA recently with my flatmate against five relentlessly cheating AIs. :p

Now that it looks like a global standard, how do you guys deal with this? Do you single out suspicious characters or just let things happen?
 

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I also don't have a problem with it. I try to match the attitude that my opponent has every time I play. For example someone I know says out loud "20 Chaos Warriors with Mark of Nurgle, Shields, Halberds and full command with banner of frenzy" when he plonks the unit down, and outlines any magic items if his opponent doesn't know what they do. As a simple courtesy I do the same thing when I play against him. On the other hand I know people who deploy and fight in absolute silence, and I return the favour.

I'd be happy to do exactly the same thing in 40k too, except apparantly 40kers need to be told by the rulebook to be nice to each other. I don't see how you can tell from the outside what a Land Raider is carrying, but there we go.
 

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Then why are we playing with equal point limits? Its not realistic at all.
and thats why the game is called fantasy.
Sethis has the right of it. I am lucky in that within my usual gaming groups we let each other know before hand what sort of game we want before we start.
If someone really wanted to see my list before we started depending o how they asked I'd probably show them but as a rule I normally just tell them what type of unit I'm putting down and if like my hand gunners or ogres it's not totally wysiwyg (I always model full command but don't usually take them in some units) I'll tell them what is different to what they can see and this usually works and I'll let them know what level wizard I'm putting down and which model is my general and if they want to know more they can buy a crysal ball it's what it's there for.
 

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If Im playing an army I dont really know then I occasionally ask to play open lists (although more often then not I simply ask about units/SC I haven't seen before and carry on). If playing a friendly game I'll often play open because I'll be helping someone with their list or at least discussing it... and if ever asked what's in my army I will say (not if I was in a tourny... but thats a different thing entirely).

If you really care about hidden people/items or just want to know then most armies have something that allows them to spy. The empir have crystal ball, my ogres have the rock eye and I know lizzies have something too... although I've only ever once used the rock eye.

EDIT- of course, if Im ever using a character that isnt WYSIWYG in any main way I'll tell my opponent everything he is carrying: if Im pretending a small club is a 2 handed great weapon then I might as well say that its actually the tenderiser (magical) as Im at it.
 

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Now that it looks like a global standard, how do you guys deal with this? Do you single out suspicious characters or just let things happen?
Whilst I would agree with what the others have said regarding how it is normal to not see lists, generally most people will let you know when starting a game if they are playing a competitive list or just want a friendly. This goes two ways of course, it stops one or both having a nasty surprise and it means you can get an idea if they are likely to bring hard lists with all the nasty shit possible, or not. If it is a friendly game you can always ask if they mind playing open lists, as you are still learning, etc.

Once you have played a few games and learnt a bit about other people's armies you will start to learn what combos to keep an eye out for when playing certain armies and builds. You can generally work out roughly what will be brought to the table once you get to know the armies you are facing.
 

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i simply have two lists 1 with the magic items on (mine) and 1 with them off and in there place the words and magic gubbins (opponents) just so they can see my units composition and that i am within the points limit this is how i have always played as it has a real effect on the game because if you knew a character had a uber sword of kill you dead then you would not accept a challenge and the same goes for your opponent i will happily say yeah he has got a magic weapon if i am asked but i don't go out my way to tell them where everything is
 

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I always have played with closed lists. I see no way I should be able to know WHICH magic banner a unit is carrying, or which unit has a concealed assassin in it and what type of poison is on its weapons, nor should my opponent. There are magic items that so that, so why should this information be given out for free?
That being said, if someone wants to know what special abilities./rules apply to a unit I have no problems answering that. After all this is common knowledge (so what if he hasn't bought my army book, it's all there in black and white).
My standard in tournaments is to bring extra copies of my army list and any background write up I may have. After the game I give a copy to my opponent, so he can see all the things he may have missed, or see a different slant (if we happen to have played the same army). Of course if there is any dispute over what's in my army I'll gladly show my opponent the entry for that unit (folding the list so just that unit is visible).
 

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I tend to go middle of the road. While I am playing a race or army that I am not that familiar with I ask so I learn about things. I have yet to face Lizardmen since about 1992? I have little idea what they can and cannot do anymore. I do know from my own base knowledge that killing the Slann Mage would probably be a priority for me however.

That said, I dont mind people playing closed lists. But I always after a tournament or even a friendly game ASK to see the list and provide a copy of mine. If during a game somebody rolls a dice for something, I ask what it is for, and ask what they rolling for. Ie; I cast fireball.... ok cool... I am rolling now to see if my ward save protects me. Thats the standard I expect. I dont need to know the item. However their is a down side. Plenty of times I have played and then learnt that somebody has done something that a unit or item cannot do..... That frustrates me, and most of the time the person who did it, is not doing it deliberately. For the moment a lot of it is... oh ok didnt realise I had 2 arcane items on that single person etc. But when it gets to items like...

Ring of Hotek

Null Talisman

as examples from the DE book, its always nice to be very clear about an item and its expectations.

ROH is a classic for everyone either thinking they know what it does, or how they interpret it, Null Talismans are the same with the ammount they can stack on top of each other.
 

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I like playing with closed lists if I know my opponent well enough to know that cheating isn't a part of their character, like the 12/15 guys in my regular group. Not knowing what they have ahead of time heightens the tension and means you get thrown a curve ball sometimes so may need to respond to it differently.

Pick-up games I'd expect to show the list, makes it easier on everyone.

I must get my Dwarfs up to 8th Ed speed..haven't played a game yet.
 

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I never play with closed lists. I have never played with closed lists and nobody I have ever played in my like 9 years of playing this game has ever played with a closed list. Also the major tournaments in the area are all open list from what I understand. I know its not in the book to tell your opponent what you have but it seems low and dirty to me. I am actually quite surprised that there are so many people that play closed list games.
 

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when i play games i never show my list as thats a part of the fun wondering what the characters are tooled with. i my oponent asks to look at my list I tell them to FUCK OFF politely. This goes for 40k as well
 

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I was lucky enough to play in a really well-run campaign for WHFB a few years ago. I thought that the organizers had a really good idea during the campaign. Before each game, you would basically make an index card for each unit in your army that detailed what the unit was, what items it had, what special abilities you had purchased for them, etc. Once one of the items/abilities came into question, you would simply show the index card for that unit to your opponent- that way, you didn't have to reveal your entire list to them, which maintained the "surprise" element, but at the same time, it maintained honesty with your list. A little more bookkeeping before the game, but not very much.
 

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Closed lists are fine as long as your Army is WYSIWYG , if not and someone is being really dicky about it then i'm happy to have them remove al their non-WYSIWYG units from the game as casualties.

Aramoro
 

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I never play with closed lists. I have never played with closed lists and nobody I have ever played in my like 9 years of playing this game has ever played with a closed list. Also the major tournaments in the area are all open list from what I understand. I know its not in the book to tell your opponent what you have but it seems low and dirty to me. I am actually quite surprised that there are so many people that play closed list games.
Tournies are split in whichg they use: closed is the standard for the game but its easier for players to run the game if they play open lists (and results in less "hang on, that warbanner you've been using isn't on your list" moments at teh end of the game).

I have to say that I prefer a friendly mix of open/closed. I dont want to know what every item of every enemy is, but I like knowing roughly if an enemy is tooled up or not and I like to know about magical standards... but then I would expect my army to be able to recognise a special enemy standard: its not like its a small broach that is hiding beneath a layer of armour.
 
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