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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm a firm believer he should be alive and I'm glad he is. I see a lot of people say "him being alive lessons his sacrifice on istvaan" which I don't quite understand. It's like saying the soldiers who survived ww2 would be better off dead, and that them staying alive doesn't mean as much.

Also, his inner struggle is really interesting, to me at least. Seing an astartes actually struggle with mental issues is refreshing to say the least.

So what is everyone else's thoughts?
 

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This has already been covered a lot elsewhere, in discussions that you took part in, but anyway...

His revival completely devalues the sacrifice of the loyalists amongst the traitor legions. His character and his alleged death symbolised them as a whole, and the portrayal of their loyalty being ultimately futile has been ruined by his return. I am completely convinced that this was a purely money decision, especially as his return has been singularly unspectacular.
 

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His revival completely devalues the sacrifice of the loyalists amongst the traitor legions. His character and his alleged death symbolised them as a whole, and the portrayal of their loyalty being ultimately futile has been ruined by his return. I am completely convinced that this was a purely money decision, especially as his return has been singularly unspectacular.
I say that Tarvitz and the other doomed loyalists, like Solomon Demeter, Huron-Fal, Tarik Torgaddon, and that Apothecary that Eidolon murdered, they symbolised the sacrifice of the doomed loyalists. Loken is their revenge come back from death to haunt Horus.


LotN
 

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Loken's initial death was somewhat mishandled. Abaddon wasn't set up well enough to be the one to kill him (not that he did, but you know what I mean). It should really have been Horus and Loken should have been clearly murdered and betrayed by his father. Abaddon just wasn't a good enough stand-in thematically.

The other satisfactory alternative would have been Loken just being randomly killed out of nowhere to illustrate the horrible tragedy etc. Being crushed to death by rubble a Titan's passing dislodged was too mundane.

As to him not dying and coming back, I wasn't averse to it at the time (as his death wasn't very good, and him not being killed by Horus - who is really his personal antagonist, not Abaddon or Little Horus or Erebus or Tormageddon - means we can now close that circle later) but further mishandling of his return and the mostly (not all) underwhelming use of him since is making me regret it. Esp as we've had his confrontation with Horus and it was mostly just dumb.

Ultimately, there better be a point to it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
This has already been covered a lot elsewhere, in discussions that you took part in, but anyway...

His revival completely devalues the sacrifice of the loyalists amongst the traitor legions. His character and his alleged death symbolised them as a whole, and the portrayal of their loyalty being ultimately futile has been ruined by his return. I am completely convinced that this was a purely money decision, especially as his return has been singularly unspectacular.
I disagree that you have to die to have sacrifice
 

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I see a lot of people say "him being alive lessons his sacrifice on istvaan" which I don't quite understand. It's like saying the soldiers who survived ww2 would be better off dead, and that them staying alive doesn't mean as much.
No it isn't.

It doesn't devalue the death of the others. It just devalues the events in general. It is a poetic allegory.

One of the things I hated about Lord of the Rings was Gandalf coming back. His sacrifice for the party was real and emotional, but he came back as Mithrandir. Eh. Boromir, Thorin, Fili, Kili, Balin. Those are deaths which hurt to see and read. They're dead. Not coming back. They've been mourned.

Now imagine them coming back. And imagine their reason for coming back.

In this case, it is someone saying 'lets see how many sales we can get' pretty much. Nothing about loken coming back has anything to do with the story at large. We got the opening 'i was there the day horus slew the emperor'. Knowing as we do what happens, that gives you chills reading it

We get attached to him, then he dies before how we think it would have done. We mourn. We move on. We get new favourites; Raldoran, Sevatar, Ventanus, etc.

Then Loken comes back. It is your ex asking for a relationship now you've got a new partner. It's just not the same.



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No it isn't.

It doesn't devalue the death of the others. It just devalues the events in general. It is a poetic allegory.

One of the things I hated about Lord of the Rings was Gandalf coming back. His sacrifice for the party was real and emotional, but he came back as Mithrandir. Eh. Boromir, Thorin, Fili, Kili, Balin. Those are deaths which hurt to see and read. They're dead. Not coming back. They've been mourned.

Now imagine them coming back. And imagine their reason for coming back.

In this case, it is someone saying 'lets see how many sales we can get' pretty much. Nothing about loken coming back has anything to do with the story at large. We got the opening 'i was there the day horus slew the emperor'. Knowing as we do what happens, that gives you chills reading it

We get attached to him, then he dies before how we think it would have done. We mourn. We move on. We get new favourites; Raldoran, Sevatar, Ventanus, etc.

Then Loken comes back. It is your ex asking for a relationship now you've got a new partner. It's just not the same.
:goodpost:
 

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It's like saying the soldiers who survived ww2 would be better off dead, and that them staying alive doesn't mean as much.
Nonsense. It's nothing like it.

If Patton all of a sudden decided at the Battle of the Bulge to change sides and joined Hitler, taking most of his men and butchering the rest, then it would be like it. But he didn't, so it isn't.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Nonsense. It's nothing like it.

If Patton all of a sudden decided at the Battle of the Bulge to change sides and joined Hitler, taking most of his men and butchering the rest, then it would be like it. But he didn't, so it isn't.
So if he did, the loyal ones who stayed with America all deserved to die?!
 

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So if he did, the loyal ones who stayed with America all deserved to die?!
What shit are you spouting? Where do you get that that is what I meant? Did I use words with too many syllables?

The loyalists were in a no-win situation, but fought on regardless. This noble but ultimately futile display of loyalty was symbolised in the figure of Loken, betrayed and killed by one of his closest brothers. Bringing him back belittles that, especially as it was only to turn him into a cash-cow.

Simple enough for you?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
What shit are you spouting? Where do you get that that is what I meant? Did I use words with too many syllables?

The loyalists were in a no-win situation, but fought on regardless. This noble but ultimately futile display of loyalty was symbolised in the figure of Loken, betrayed and killed by one of his closest brothers. Bringing him back belittles that, especially as it was only to turn him into a cash-cow.

Simple enough for you?
So like I said, if all arms lost, you believe the loser should just die.

If someone you knew was in the same situation of LOKEN and the suddenly returned would you still say"wtf man! You died a symbolic death, so go frigging die!)


So now do you see my point?
 

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The loyalists were in a no-win situation, but fought on regardless. This noble but ultimately futile display of loyalty was symbolised in the figure of Loken, betrayed and killed by one of his closest brothers. Bringing him back belittles that, especially as it was only to turn him into a cash-cow.
I understand what you're saying KF. But I personally feel that Garviel Loken did die there, in a sense. The man he has become now is not who he was, the trusting and somewhat naive Legionary Captain, the one who truly believed in Legion and Primarch and felt a little like what a real knight should be. Now Cereberus feels a lot darker, someone who has had his trust betrayed and won't be extending it again any time soon, someone who thinks that his and by extension his allies' efforts are futile and that all that remains is to make the darkness work for it's victory.

I say that Garviel Loken's original persona died at Istvaan and that symbolised, along with the deaths of all the other Loyalists (especially Solomon Demter whose death I found more poignant and heartbreaking than Loken's), the death of innocence and betrayal that sparks the Horus Heresy. Loken's return and who he has become is a foreshadowing of what will come, the same as the Imperial Palace becoming the Imperial Fortress, Dorn burning the Remembrancer records, Malcador forming the proto-Inquisition; these are all the beginning of the Imperium of Man we all recognize.


LotN
 

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I understand what you're saying KF. But I personally feel that Garviel Loken did die there, in a sense. The man he has become now is not who he was, the trusting and somewhat naive Legionary Captain, the one who truly believed in Legion and Primarch and felt a little like what a real knight should be. Now Cereberus feels a lot darker, someone who has had his trust betrayed and won't be extending it again any time soon, someone who thinks that his and by extension his allies' efforts are futile and that all that remains is to make the darkness work for it's victory.

I say that Garviel Loken's original persona died at Istvaan and that symbolised, along with the deaths of all the other Loyalists (especially Solomon Demter whose death I found more poignant and heartbreaking than Loken's), the death of innocence and betrayal that sparks the Horus Heresy. Loken's return and who he has become is a foreshadowing of what will come, the same as the Imperial Palace becoming the Imperial Fortress, Dorn burning the Remembrancer records, Malcador forming the proto-Inquisition; these are all the beginning of the Imperium of Man we all recognize.


LotN
I can see the merits of that viewpoint LotN, but to me it only stands up if he had come back in the next book or two, not years later, after a couple of the writers pretty much confirmed he was definitely dead, and it's blatantly obvious that he was only brought back to sell audio books to fanboyz like the OP.

It has been handled extremely poorly, turning a noble and loyal character into an angst ridden gardener with a personality disorder, who may or may not one day return to the side of his primarch.
 

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I'm still with the others. I really liked Loken and assumed he would be the series main protagonist in a sense, that somehow he and others would survive Istvaan. So when he 'died' I was like, well fuck. And it really hits home just how brutal that betrayal was, that even Loken, loyal to the core, with all the beliefs and traits you want in an astartes, still dies, killed by one of his closest brothers. No one is safe, the betrayal is absolute.

And like others have said. Him surviving, just seems meh. I now read GiF, and whilst Torgaddons death still sucks, I see Loken get beaten and just sigh, as he somehow survives. It just completely took the tragedy away. We had Garro, Qruze, Keeler and the others survive the massacre. We didn't need any survivors on the surface. I don't buy into the whole 'Loken died on Istvaan, he's completely different now' because reading Vengeful Spirit, he's still very much Loken.

So yeah. He should have died. Him surviving quite literally ruined Istvaan III for me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Tho it never once stated he actually died. Never. We knew Tarik died, it was clear as day, but lolens death was always a mystery and after j finished gif for the first time, I wondered if e truly was dead.

Like j said before, it's nice to see an astartes actually having some mental issues, showing that they are not too different from humans. I guess I want more then just " DEATH!!!!!"
 

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Tho it never once stated he actually died. Never. We knew Tarik died, it was clear as day, but lolens death was always a mystery and after j finished gif for the first time, I wondered if e truly was dead.

Like j said before, it's nice to see an astartes actually having some mental issues, showing that they are not too different from humans. I guess I want more then just " DEATH!!!!!"
Really? Do you need everything spelled out for you? A damn titan brought down the colossal building he was trapped inside of, already badly injured, and then Horus ordered the city wiped of the face of the planet. The orbital bombardment would have been of unimaginable proportions. Yet Loken, without any cover, other than the building that fell on him, which didn't obscure his view of the sky I might add, before you try and call that cover from an orbital bombardment, survived. Without losing a single limb I might add, or ANY real obvious damage, I would have thought a note would have been made if his face had been burned off or ruined beyond recognition, which would almost a complete certainty considering his face was open to the sky.

So yeah, his survival is nothing short of laughable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Really? Do you need everything spelled out for you? A damn titan brought down the colossal building he was trapped inside of, already badly injured, and then Horus ordered the city wiped of the face of the planet. The orbital bombardment would have been of unimaginable proportions. Yet Loken, without any cover, other than the building that fell on him, which didn't obscure his view of the sky I might add, before you try and call that cover from an orbital bombardment, survived. Without losing a single limb I might add, or ANY real obvious damage, I would have thought a note would have been made if his face had been burned off or ruined beyond recognition, which would almost a complete certainty considering his face was open to the sky.

So yeah, his survival is nothing short of laughable.
Bud its 40k there are tons of examples of astartes or even primachs living through certain death
 
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