Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Ex Mod.
Joined
·
4,245 Posts
iv seen threads of this sort on other forums where people had been banned for arguing over this.

in truth i dont really think theyre all that useful, really i can only see then being used on roughriders or assualt orientated guard vets. theyre shit for marines as the bolter or BP+CCW is a much better alternative.

to make then effective they probably need a range increase or something like the melta where they get +1 strength at half range, although this may unbalance the game.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
432 Posts
I would like to see them have a flamer template at thier current stats (S3 with no ap), that would be much more useful and it would be a simpe "insert word here" that would make them worth taking.
 

·
Powered by Squig Tea
Joined
·
7,589 Posts
No one seems to use them much now and they have to be used just so to be any good.
I do not rate them myself.

They used to have different kinds of shot and a little round template in Second edition.
I think its was about the size of a swarm/terminator base and S3 and then there was solid shot at S4 I can't remember the minus to armour (AP).
Adding doing the option to fire solid shot at S4 AP 5 Assault 1 OR scatter shot at S3 AP 0 Assault 2 would do it for me. Bit like Frag or Krak Missiles/Grenades.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
821 Posts
>> Dark Angel shotguns are s4 now. New shell type, but they still only assault 2, which i suppose is shit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Like cccp_one said, I've always thought shotguns should get a bonus at closer range. Similar to the Meltagun in terms of bonus (bonus at half range, but different bonus, not AP 1). Perhaps making it assault 3 instead. It makes sense, as we all know shotguns are much more effective at close range. I personally love shotguns, thanks to such FPS games as halo, and the image of 10 or so scouts running up to a squad of genestealers and blasting them with 30 S3 shots makes me happy. Flamer template would work too, although then I'd say there would have to be a pts increase.
As it is, I'm sticking to Bolt Pistol/ Close Combat Weapon. So much better.

Look, if you want to use your scouts for shooting, and not charging, use the bolter. You can shoot once at twice the range of the shotgun, at higher strength and better AP, or shoot just as many times as the shotgun witing 12", also with better strength and AP.

You want to use your scouts for assault (either to tie up units, counter attack, or just... kill stuff), you go with BP/ CCW. Yeah, you only get 1 shot instead of 2, but again it has higher stregnth and better AP, plus you get another attack when you charge, also at higher strength. Not to mention you have the extra attack ever following turn in CC.

(btw, I'm talking about SM scouts with shotguns. I don't know what IG units can take them, although they probably have their uses).

EDIT- yeah, as for the S4 dark angel shotguns... I don't think that's the answer. I think that's a lazy way to get people to stop complaining. It's uncreative, uninteresting, and uncharacterful. Shotguns are unique weapons, I want to see unique rules.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,445 Posts
Tok said:
Like cccp_one said, I've always thought shotguns should get a bonus at closer range. Similar to the Meltagun in terms of bonus (bonus at half range, but different bonus, not AP 1. Perhaps making it assault 3 instead. It makes sense, as we all know shotguns are much more effective at close range. I personally love shotguns, thanks to such FPS games as halo, and the image of 10 or so scouts running up to a squad of genestealers and blasting them with 30 S3 shots makes me happy. Flamer template would work too, although then I'd say there would have to be a pts increase.
As it is, I'm sticking to Bolt Pistol/ Close Combat Weapon. So much better.

Look, if you want to use your scouts for shooting, and not charging, use the bolter. You can shoot once at twice the range of the shotgun, at higher strength and better AP, or shoot just as many times as the shotgun witing 12", also with better strength and AP.

You want to use your scouts for assault (either to tie up units, counter attack, or just... kill stuff), you go with BP/ CCW. Yeah, you only get 1 shot instead of 2, but again it has higher stregnth and better AP, plus you get another attack when you charge, also at higher strength. Not to mention you have the extra attack ever following turn in CC.

(btw, I'm talking about SM scouts with shotguns. I don't know what IG units can take them, although they probably have their uses).
Veteran squads, Sergeants, and anyone w/ access to the armory can take a shotgun. They are have the same profile as a laspistol, except assault 2 instead of rapid fire. I suppose the only benefit you get there is you can still cc and fire twice, but with the guard, that's not high on the list of priorities.

Theoretically, I would at least make 'em AP 6, cause a shotgun is damn powerful.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
801 Posts
Back in thrid edition they were slightly better, because you couldn't rapid fire while moving. If you moved at all, you got 1 shot at 12", and even then shotguns really were'nt that good. Now even that's been taken away from them.
 

·
Executive Nitpicker
Joined
·
8,276 Posts
I'm not going to drop this into a "I knwo guns inreal life and thisis how they work" thing.

Strictly in a 40k context, shotguns only work well under two conditions: 1) used in assault units, 2) only if its Str is equal or greater than the user or alternative pistol weapons.

If you;re nopt using them in assaut squads, or you have access to higher Str pistols orjust bare hands, they're not going to be very good.

However, if you're IG for example, being able to unleash 20 S3 shots, *before* chrgingin to deliver 20 more S3 attacks, that;s a hell of a lot better than having a lasgun and firing either the shots or assaulting, and for all intents and purposes, it's about as good as using laspistols and CCWs unless the target has SV6 armor, then the AP of the laser actually matters.But most times it won't.

I know a lot of IG players who wish they could put shotguns on stormies.

Meanwhile marines have S4 and access to bolt pistols, so shotgun scouts are pretty crappy compared to a BP and CCW. (assuming a 10man squad) 20 S3 shotsfollowed by 20 S4 attacks is ok, but nowhere near as good as 10 S4 AP5 bold pistol shots followed by 30 S4 attacks.

which is why the new S4 shotguns for dark angels are actually a good alternative against anyone with a save better than 5+. Why? Because 20 S4shots that hit on a 3+ before 20 S4 attacks that hit on a 4+ is better than 10 shots that hit on a 3+ followed by 30 that hit on a 4+

If they gave all SMs access to S4shotguns, they;d be a more viable weapon for us. Meanwhile, most IG players already wish they had greater access to just S3 ones

Ofcourse, even with S4 shotguns, you won;t see them on my scouts because my Blood Angels are S5 on the charge ;-)
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
677 Posts
I don't see a problem making them Str 3, Ap5, Assault 2 12".
A shotgun, especially in the frickin future, is going to blow through some imperial flak armor. The storm units that use them can really benefit from the Ap5.
It would be cool if they had Dragonsbreath rounds that could be bought for select small units, or a model or two at least. Make it Str 4 Ap6 Flame template.
A model who's toughness is equal to or less than the shotguns strength should be shaken ala a thunderhammer.
 

·
Executive Nitpicker
Joined
·
8,276 Posts
Shotguns (at least with buckshot) weren't designed to penetrate armor, they;re designed for hunting animals, small game and unarmored targets like rioting prisoners. It's a suppression weapon used to inflict pain and shock on a group of targets, or to kill small game without needing a direct hit.

This ain't the uber DOOM gun, it's a gun for shooting at flocks of birds and for wounding unarmored people.

The fact it packs as much punch as a lasgun (which is described as being able to vaporize a human torso in one shot) speaks volumes as to its upgraded power in the future setting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
432 Posts
maybe they just need to remove it altogether, or just leave it with the Arbites and make it something special for them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
804 Posts
A hotshot lasround can vaporize the human torso, a normal shot just issues a nice sized whole in the torso to unarmored targets and usually a bone breaking force to human armored targets if i remember correctly, and galahad also makes the point, this isnt some massive boomstick this is a shotgun most commonly used by the judge/policing force ppl for crowd control, its not meant to be as powerful as a 75 cal round, thats like saying a shotgun has as much punching power as 1 1/2 50 cal rifles
Personally i like the idea of giving it a spread shot option with flamer templet, it makes sense, and if it has any AP at all it should be AP6, again to say a burst of shotgun fire is enough to match a 75 cal round? it just doesnt make sense, but that also means lasguns should be AP6, maybe bump multilas's down to AP5 to make things make more sense
It IS the future yes, but still the shotgun is used more as the crowd control kinda weapon, not some overpowered shelling of overpowered burst rounds
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
I kinda like them. They have the "cool" factor even if they don't cut it on the battlefield. Against the right opponent and used correctly, they can be as effective as any other similar weapon. More so perhaps if you play it right.

A whole squad with assault 2 weapons, being able to fire say 20 shots and then charge in is not to be sniffed at. I'd use 10 man scout squads to take on Tau Firewarriors with that for example. You should kill 3 or 4 from firing and then a similar number on the charge, enough to get them below 50% and claim VPs.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
801 Posts
Only problem is that in every single situation in which they can be used, there i another weapon option for the exact same price that is more effective. They just aren't as good as their competition.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
801 Posts
Yes, but if you want to assault you have Bolt Pistols. You have half the shots at S4 ap5, then +1 attacks at S4. There's no competition whatsoever.
 

·
Powered by Squig Tea
Joined
·
7,589 Posts
They still have their limited uses, but not really in a SM list at the moment.

Elysian Drop Troop armies have made great use of them clearing grot gun crews and such other low toughness/armoured stuff in the past that I have seen.
Its all a question of where you point them.
If you know who/what you are playing they can be an asset but only in a very small niche IMO.
 

·
Executive Nitpicker
Joined
·
8,276 Posts
I'm not going to say shotguns are good on SM Scouts

But just because it;s a bad choice for one army/unit doesn't make it a useless weapon.

As I said, IG players would kill for shotguns on stormies. Compare shotgun vs lasgun or even shotgun vs laspistol and CCW. For SMs, no a shotgun doesn;t make sense, but it;s good for guard assault units.

Now, the Dark Angels S4 shotgun is actually viable for marines, even compared to BP/CCW
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top