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Scorpion powerfist: str 6 right?

1962 Views 32 Replies 8 Participants Last post by  Mad King George
Just so I can point somewhere besides the codex to show someone that the eldar striking scorpion strikes at str 6 because you can't use both the benefit of the chainsword with the powerfist. He argues that the chainsword is wargear and so adds to the fist. I explain that the sword is a weapon and thus doesn't stack just like it says on p. 46 in the second paragraph. Can anyone back me up?
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Even if you have two weapons, you may only use one in a given phase of combat.

So even though he can count the chainsword as a second CCW and gain an attack form it, he has to choose whether to use it (and gain the +1 str) or the claw (and gain x2 str, ignore saves, but strike last)

The sword is good to have in case you want to take advantage of your initiave advantage, but you cannot use it to magically make a power claw stronger.

The only weapons I know of that explicitly combine their effects are Abbadon's daemon weapons, but those are a special case and are called out specifically in his entry.
yes, but a Power Fist also says it doubles the user's Str (without saying that it;s limited to attacks made with it) then goes on to say that attacks made with it are at init 1

Does that mean you can use a powerfist and a knife and strike at your full initiative and double strength by using the knife?

By the same wording logic, the powerfist doubles your str and lets you ignore armor saves with no strings attached. Only the init limitation is specifically tied to the fist, so theoretically you can use your combat knife or bolt pistol and strike at full initiative and double strength.

But the rules specifically call out (paragraph 2 p46) that if you have multiple special close combat attacks you have to pick one and uses the power fist as an example. The powerfist's strength enhancement has the same wording as the scorpion chainsword, but the paragraph clearly shows that if you want its benefits you have to commit to it in the assault phase.

Bottom line is, if a weapon grants you a bonus in the assault phase you have to use that weapon for it to be effective.
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Bob (Can I call you Bob?), I love a good "It's retarded, but it's what the rules say" thread as much as everyone else hates them, and I've never been one to end a debate with "I don;t care what the rules say, it's just stupid." because that's just plain lazy...

But I don't see where you're coming from on this one.

The wording for the scorpion chainsword isn't significantly different than that of the powerfist.

The powerfist reads
"A powerfist is <description>. It doubles the user's strength..." blah blah

The Scorpion Chainsword reads
"This is a one-handed weapon that adds +1 Str to the model's attacks."

How are those meaningfully different?
This is a big metal fist. It makes you twice as strong.
This is a chainsaw sword that makes you 1 point stronger.

In either case it is clearly stated that the *weapon* is what confers the bonus. Since you cannot *use* two special attacks/weapons and gain the bonuses of both (as described on p46) you must pick one.

It doesn't matter how the bonus is granted, if you're not using the weapon you cannot gain its bonus.

I could see if it said "It's a one handed weapon AND it adds +1 to str" because then you could argue that the bonus is independent from the item's role as a weapon.

But in this case the strength bonus is clearly and explicitly tied to its role as a weapon. If you do not use it as a weapon it does not grant you the bonus.

If you're arguing that it doesn't say you have to use the sword to gain the +1, it also doesn't say that you have to USE the powerfist. It just says that it (the power fist) makes you twice as strong. It doesn't say its attacks are twice as strong, or attacks made with the powerfist are at double strength. It just makes you twice as strong.

It never says you have to use a force weapon for it to unleash its attack either.

But in all cases the rules are clear that if a weapon has a special property, you have to USE that weapon to gain the property. It;s clear
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Oops, I'm sorry. For some reason I got you and bob mixed up.
I've edited the post. Sorry about that ;-)
First about the Frost blade it says that it adds +1 to the user's strength. That means you must use the frost blade for the extra strength.

The Scorpion Chainsword says that it adds +1 strength to the models attacks. If he makes attacks, they are at +1 strength, and don't even try to go on about their guns being at +1 strength because it says attacks, not shots.
Except they use 'Shots' and 'Shooting Attacks' interchangeably, but let's not go there.

If a guy has a Scorpion Chainsword his A abilities have +1 strength than normal.
And a model with a powerfist has his Strength score doubled. Except it only does that when you use it.

Just like the Scorpion Chainsword.

As for pg. 46 paragraph 2. It says only 1 type of special attack can be made. So no you can't combine a force weapon and a powerfist as they are both special attacks, but the Scorpion Chainsword doesn't say that the +1 strength bonus is only for attacks made with the weapon.
And the powerfist doesn't say that the double strength is just for attacks made with it.

And the force weapon says nothing about actually having to use it. Just that if you score a wound you can make a psychic test and use its ability.

It just says for the models attacks. If it said "+1 strength to the users attacks", I would agree that you don't get the bonus. If it said "+1 strength to attacks made with it," I would agree that you don't get the bonus, but it just says +1 strength to models attacks. This means that the +1 strength bonus isn't for its own special attack, just the model who is equipped with it's attacks.
Does the *weapon* grant you a bonus in the assault phase? Does it make your attacks special, in some way? Then guess what, it's a special attack. If you want to use your special +1 strength attacks you cannot combine it with the effect of another weapon.

As for the powerfist not saying that you only double strength for it. It does specify that. It reads that it doubles the user's strength, ignoring armour saves. Which means you either get both effects (doubling of strength and ignoring armour saves) or you don't get any because again it says that it doubles the users strength, implying that you must use it for the benefit.
Alright, so it gives you double strength and allows you to ignore saves...it still never says that you actually have to hit someone with it for that to be in effect. The only thing directly tied to attacking with it is the initiative penalty.

If you want to be absurd, I can be absurd too.

Even if you are right in saying that the weapon magically bestows a bonus without being used, attacking with +1 to your strength as a result of a weapon is a Special Attack, wouldn't you say? It's an attack that does not act as normal because it was altered, in some way, by a weapon.

If you want to use your special +1 str attacks then you can't stack them with any other special attack.

You want to get into black and white rules, there it is.
Note that the rules don't specifically say 'special weapons' they say 'special close combat attacks' (Also note that here they specify 'close combat' attacks, as opposed to other kinds of attacks?)

So the model with the chainsword and the claw has more than one special close combat attack.
He has a +1 str attack that works at his full initiative, and he has a 2x str attack that ignores armor and works at I1.

He has to pick one.

The weapon doesn't say it adds a bonus to the model's strength score (like Furious Charge would), it says it adds it to his attacks, thus making a form of special attacks.

I think that's the answer right there. These attacks that have been altered by the sword are special attacks, period. No matter whether the attack is made with the sword or a magically augmented headbutt, it's an attack that was made special, it doesn't stack with other special attacks

Ya, that strength 7 instead of 6 makes the Exarch such a hardass.....
It doesn;t matter how big or small an advantage is. If it;s against the rules it's something you should point out.
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