Just so I can point somewhere besides the codex to show someone that the eldar striking scorpion strikes at str 6 because you can't use both the benefit of the chainsword with the powerfist. He argues that the chainsword is wargear and so adds to the fist. I explain that the sword is a weapon and thus doesn't stack just like it says on p. 46 in the second paragraph. Can anyone back me up?
Scorpion powerfist: str 6 right?
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Culler under my current understanding of the rules all the chainsword would do is grant an extra 1 attack with the str 6 power fist or vice versus. You can not stack two weapons benefits unless it specifically states so and I don't think there are weapons out there that allow it currently.
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Even if you have two weapons, you may only use one in a given phase of combat.
So even though he can count the chainsword as a second CCW and gain an attack form it, he has to choose whether to use it (and gain the +1 str) or the claw (and gain x2 str, ignore saves, but strike last)
The sword is good to have in case you want to take advantage of your initiave advantage, but you cannot use it to magically make a power claw stronger.
The only weapons I know of that explicitly combine their effects are Abbadon's daemon weapons, but those are a special case and are called out specifically in his entry.
So even though he can count the chainsword as a second CCW and gain an attack form it, he has to choose whether to use it (and gain the +1 str) or the claw (and gain x2 str, ignore saves, but strike last)
The sword is good to have in case you want to take advantage of your initiave advantage, but you cannot use it to magically make a power claw stronger.
The only weapons I know of that explicitly combine their effects are Abbadon's daemon weapons, but those are a special case and are called out specifically in his entry.
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Unfortunately for you I do believe that it makes the powerfist strength 7.
The Chain sword entry states: This is a one-handed weapon that adds +1 S to the model's attacks.
It does not say "adds +1 strength to attacks made with this weapon." It just says +1 strength to attacks. So if he attacks in CC he is at +1 strength, and remember that you double strength then add the +1.
The Chain sword entry states: This is a one-handed weapon that adds +1 S to the model's attacks.
It does not say "adds +1 strength to attacks made with this weapon." It just says +1 strength to attacks. So if he attacks in CC he is at +1 strength, and remember that you double strength then add the +1.
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yes, but a Power Fist also says it doubles the user's Str (without saying that it;s limited to attacks made with it) then goes on to say that attacks made with it are at init 1
Does that mean you can use a powerfist and a knife and strike at your full initiative and double strength by using the knife?
By the same wording logic, the powerfist doubles your str and lets you ignore armor saves with no strings attached. Only the init limitation is specifically tied to the fist, so theoretically you can use your combat knife or bolt pistol and strike at full initiative and double strength.
But the rules specifically call out (paragraph 2 p46) that if you have multiple special close combat attacks you have to pick one and uses the power fist as an example. The powerfist's strength enhancement has the same wording as the scorpion chainsword, but the paragraph clearly shows that if you want its benefits you have to commit to it in the assault phase.
Bottom line is, if a weapon grants you a bonus in the assault phase you have to use that weapon for it to be effective.
Does that mean you can use a powerfist and a knife and strike at your full initiative and double strength by using the knife?
By the same wording logic, the powerfist doubles your str and lets you ignore armor saves with no strings attached. Only the init limitation is specifically tied to the fist, so theoretically you can use your combat knife or bolt pistol and strike at full initiative and double strength.
But the rules specifically call out (paragraph 2 p46) that if you have multiple special close combat attacks you have to pick one and uses the power fist as an example. The powerfist's strength enhancement has the same wording as the scorpion chainsword, but the paragraph clearly shows that if you want its benefits you have to commit to it in the assault phase.
Bottom line is, if a weapon grants you a bonus in the assault phase you have to use that weapon for it to be effective.
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The Power fist entry says that "it doubles the user's strength, ignoring armour saves. That means IT must be used to double the strength.
The Scorpion Chainsword says (and I quote again) This is a one-handed weapon that adds +1 S to the model's attacks. It is a one-handed weapon so it adds an extra attack for the 2 CCW. Then it says IT adds +1 S to the model's attacks. It says nothing about having to use IT for the +1 bonus like the powerfist says that IT (the powerfist) doubles the user's strength.
If you have a Scorpion Chainsword your CC attacks are at +1 S.
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And this, kiddies, is a type of rules justification that leaves you at risk of having "bludgeoned with a 200 page rulebook" listed as your cause of death. :suicide:
We here at the Institution of Rational Gamers (IRG) recommend against such practices for your own safety.
k:
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Firstly, the book is closer to 300 pages than 200.And this, kiddies, is a type of rules justification that leaves you at risk of having "bludgeoned with a 200 page rulebook" listed as your cause of death. :suicide:
We here at the Institution of Rational Gamers (IRG) recommend against such practices for your own safety.
Second, your Institution of Rational Gamers remark I agree with. I try to rationalize the rules every time, however every time I do try to use my rationalization, I get RAW thrown into my face. I believe this is the first time I am even on the side of RAW. I was just stating the wording and why technically you get the bonus. If you don't want to play RAW, fine. I don't really care what you do. I was just showing that the Scorpion Chainsword's rules state that it adds a +1 bonus to strength on attacks, and because it doesn't state that it only adds the +1 bonus to strength on attacks made with the Chainsword like all the other CCW state that they only provide the benefit when using them (such as double strength for powerfists, or power weapons ignoring armour saves, or poisoned weapons wounding at worst on a +4), it (the +1 strength bonus) counts towards all attacks (in close combat.)
Even though I do agree that it shouldn't provide the +1 bonus, I didn't write the book, I just try to follow the rules. Thats why most of my posts are under the rules section.
Triumph Of Man, Apokra, instead of threatening me like children why don't you take a lesson from Galahad and instead try to prove me wrong with the rules. In fact I would be thrilled if you can, because I have to face those stupid things fairly often and 1 less strength would be a great help to me, especially when they are fighting one of my Daemon Princes.
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I'm not threatening you, just giving you a humorous warning. There's a difference, however slight.
As for arguing with you? Well there's little point as you're interpreting the rules to a silly degree, but I'll humour you. I think most other people apply some common sense. And look at the rules found in your codex/errata/chapter approved/rulebook as such:
Special Stabby Close Combat Weapon: This is a description of what the Special Stabby Close Combat Weapon (SSCCW) does when you use it, namely stabbing in a fashion more special than your average chainsword.
This Special Close Combat Attack is governed by a base set of rules, found in the first few paragraphs under Special Close Combat Attacks on p.46. And in there you'll find that it implies that special effects in close combat are tied to their respective special weapons, of which you've got to pick one to attack with, and you can't combine effects. Galahad has already pointed this out and you've ignored it.
However you've gone and interpreted to a silly degree where you've decided that each weapon individually across every single bloody codex, chapter approved, and errata entry has it's own set of rules that govern it, not those printed in the first paragraphs of p.46, and thus they must all be spelt out in that one single sentence in your codex/errata/rulebook what have you.
Because of course if it was meant to pack its own entire set of rules different from those found under Special Close Combat Attacks on page 46, it makes perfect bloody sense to cram them into exactly one sentence that is 13 words long, yes indeedy it does.
Logical approach using common sense? I think not. But, as I said, I doubt you'll pay any heed to this and continue with your interpretations attempting to take it beyond the Nth degree anyway, so... meh. Your loss.
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does this mean my rune priest with a frost blade and a force weapon doesn't get his s+1 on his force weapon dam
dam
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Ack, I even pointed out the page that was addressed on. Go have a look at page 46 again. Then come back and try to hijack the thread.
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Bob (Can I call you Bob?), I love a good "It's retarded, but it's what the rules say" thread as much as everyone else hates them, and I've never been one to end a debate with "I don;t care what the rules say, it's just stupid." because that's just plain lazy...
But I don't see where you're coming from on this one.
The wording for the scorpion chainsword isn't significantly different than that of the powerfist.
The powerfist reads
"A powerfist is <description>. It doubles the user's strength..." blah blah
The Scorpion Chainsword reads
"This is a one-handed weapon that adds +1 Str to the model's attacks."
How are those meaningfully different?
This is a big metal fist. It makes you twice as strong.
This is a chainsaw sword that makes you 1 point stronger.
In either case it is clearly stated that the *weapon* is what confers the bonus. Since you cannot *use* two special attacks/weapons and gain the bonuses of both (as described on p46) you must pick one.
It doesn't matter how the bonus is granted, if you're not using the weapon you cannot gain its bonus.
I could see if it said "It's a one handed weapon AND it adds +1 to str" because then you could argue that the bonus is independent from the item's role as a weapon.
But in this case the strength bonus is clearly and explicitly tied to its role as a weapon. If you do not use it as a weapon it does not grant you the bonus.
If you're arguing that it doesn't say you have to use the sword to gain the +1, it also doesn't say that you have to USE the powerfist. It just says that it (the power fist) makes you twice as strong. It doesn't say its attacks are twice as strong, or attacks made with the powerfist are at double strength. It just makes you twice as strong.
It never says you have to use a force weapon for it to unleash its attack either.
But in all cases the rules are clear that if a weapon has a special property, you have to USE that weapon to gain the property. It;s clear
But I don't see where you're coming from on this one.
The wording for the scorpion chainsword isn't significantly different than that of the powerfist.
The powerfist reads
"A powerfist is <description>. It doubles the user's strength..." blah blah
The Scorpion Chainsword reads
"This is a one-handed weapon that adds +1 Str to the model's attacks."
How are those meaningfully different?
This is a big metal fist. It makes you twice as strong.
This is a chainsaw sword that makes you 1 point stronger.
In either case it is clearly stated that the *weapon* is what confers the bonus. Since you cannot *use* two special attacks/weapons and gain the bonuses of both (as described on p46) you must pick one.
It doesn't matter how the bonus is granted, if you're not using the weapon you cannot gain its bonus.
I could see if it said "It's a one handed weapon AND it adds +1 to str" because then you could argue that the bonus is independent from the item's role as a weapon.
But in this case the strength bonus is clearly and explicitly tied to its role as a weapon. If you do not use it as a weapon it does not grant you the bonus.
If you're arguing that it doesn't say you have to use the sword to gain the +1, it also doesn't say that you have to USE the powerfist. It just says that it (the power fist) makes you twice as strong. It doesn't say its attacks are twice as strong, or attacks made with the powerfist are at double strength. It just makes you twice as strong.
It never says you have to use a force weapon for it to unleash its attack either.
But in all cases the rules are clear that if a weapon has a special property, you have to USE that weapon to gain the property. It;s clear
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Hang on wait, who are you talking to here? o_0? I'm arguing the same point as you really.
It was a jest to bring humor around not threaten. Because lets face it you're just not worth the jail time That and I'd rather not have a 400 lb friend named bubba for whatever allotment of time the judge gave me!
When it comes down to it stuff like this is like the last ARd'Boyz tournament when a person staggered two marine squads just enough that you can't EVER charge unless you do something to knock them out of cohesive units (the judge called over laughed at the hard interpretation of the rules and allowed my friend to charge), causing them not to be within one inch of each other. All I know is I'd take it to a tournament and let someone higher up make the deciding rule on such a case.
If someone did it to me, i'd be bringing 20 unit strong sisters and making a staggering line is where I'd go with it because that is in fact a "HARD" interpretation of the rules. It would be a game that reeked of very narrow readings of the rules which tend to blow the most.
That and I'd rather not have a 400 lb friend named bubba for whatever allotment of time the judge gave me!When it comes down to it stuff like this is like the last ARd'Boyz tournament when a person staggered two marine squads just enough that you can't EVER charge unless you do something to knock them out of cohesive units (the judge called over laughed at the hard interpretation of the rules and allowed my friend to charge), causing them not to be within one inch of each other. All I know is I'd take it to a tournament and let someone higher up make the deciding rule on such a case.
If someone did it to me, i'd be bringing 20 unit strong sisters and making a staggering line is where I'd go with it because that is in fact a "HARD" interpretation of the rules. It would be a game that reeked of very narrow readings of the rules which tend to blow the most.
From my pov it's pretty easy to delegate this with the following logic. Is the it a weapon? Does it do anything beyond granting an extra attack if you have 2? If the answer is yes to both of these questions, then it's a ccw that grants a special effect, and you can never have more than one such effect.
Is the scorpion chainsword a weapon? Certainly, it grants an extra attack if you have 2 and says it is. Does the scorpion chainsword do anything beyond granting an extra attack if you have 2? Why yes, yes it does. It gives +1 str to the model's attacks. The answer to both questions was yes, therefore you can't double on on special weapon effects. GW is notorious for having some vaguely opposed wordings, it's much better to use the general rule that they're obliquely referring to to govern all situations not explicitly worded as being an exception to the rule.
If you want to rationalize it the scorpion chainsword is made with advanced eldar engineering such that it is so deadly that it adds +1 to the model's strength when rolling to wound (not really increasing their own strength but rather allowing them to wound easier). So it's a weapon that must be used to be effective. It's not like the chainsword is really heavy so they do strength training in order to wield it. That would be reflected by having a base 4 strength.
Is the scorpion chainsword a weapon? Certainly, it grants an extra attack if you have 2 and says it is. Does the scorpion chainsword do anything beyond granting an extra attack if you have 2? Why yes, yes it does. It gives +1 str to the model's attacks. The answer to both questions was yes, therefore you can't double on on special weapon effects. GW is notorious for having some vaguely opposed wordings, it's much better to use the general rule that they're obliquely referring to to govern all situations not explicitly worded as being an exception to the rule.
If you want to rationalize it the scorpion chainsword is made with advanced eldar engineering such that it is so deadly that it adds +1 to the model's strength when rolling to wound (not really increasing their own strength but rather allowing them to wound easier). So it's a weapon that must be used to be effective. It's not like the chainsword is really heavy so they do strength training in order to wield it. That would be reflected by having a base 4 strength.
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stupid question i know
but can i uses a weapon that gives +1 strength and attack with a power weapon ?
but can i uses a weapon that gives +1 strength and attack with a power weapon ?
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Page 46! Go have a look.
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