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Discussion Starter #1
Gday all again long time no post. Just finished reading all of the Scars episodes by Chris Wriaght.

Not really a spoiler but I definitely like how Russ and the Khan are shown or alluded to what will happen to them in the future. The Khans relationship with his brothers and his stance at the council of Nikea, to name just a few. Any one else pick up any other little nuggets?

Over all I thought it completely explained why the WS took so long to enter the fray.

Worth the bucks for sure.
 

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One thing I noticed is that the Khan had hearts--as in plural. Other Primarchs have been written to have a single heart.

Is the Khan different or just a little mistake?

Also the author referenced the Imperial Navy...something that didn't exist back then. Whoops!

I didn't like how quickly the White Scars could turn. You don't accelerate that quickly in space. Or shouldn't, anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Good pick up on the imperial navy not so sure on the heart thing but the speed in which you say they could turn in space what do you mean? if its void combat your talking about I assume they could with the modifications that the WS did to there ships.
 

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Ships don't move that quickly. Most large capital ships accelerate at around 2-2.5gs. Even the Eldar vessels go like 9gs.

These are definitely fast. But fleet actions occur at 1000s of not 10,000s of kilometers. A fleet doesn't simply fly by another in seconds.

The event should have taken an hour or two for them to fly by. In terms of void warfare (which generally runs very slow in all but the most extreme of circumstances) this would have made the same point--the White Scars would have flown by miraculously quickly. And yet at the same time not spit in the eye of physics and established limits.
 

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In world of Dark Gods, warp, Emperor, Giant walking robots - all is possible.
 

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Also the author referenced the Imperial Navy...something that didn't exist back then. Whoops!
I don't remember reading that. I just searched for "Imperial Navy" in my ebook edition and it came up with no results. Have you got a page reference?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
COTE episode 6 pg 58 it states, "the imperial navy could not of performed such a manoeuvre in less then five minutes" I think thats the line he is mentioning.
 

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Two things:

1. Primarchs have been mentioned as having plural hearts for a long time now. In ancient fluff, during one of the Lion's duels with Leman Russ, the former stabs the latter through one of his hearts. In more recent fluff, False Gods describes Horus having two hearts.

2. Where the Imperial navy is concerned... Sorry, but it technically doesn't say anything about an Imperial Navy. Here is the quote in question:

“Ilya felt her mouth begin to hang open and snapped it closed. She had never seen shipmastery like it. The best Imperial naval officers could not have performed such a manoeuvre in less than five minutes, and it would have required hundreds of course-correction warnings and hours of preparation to bring off.”

Excerpt From: Chris Wraight. “Scars: Episode VI.” iBooks.
Mind you, I think the omission of an Imperial "Navy" is a completely silly concept. An Imperial navy has been ever-present in the Heresy series, and has been a separate arm of the Imperial military in all but name. That it is never mentioned is probably a way to reinforce the division of power between void and ground forces that would be introduced in the future. It's silly because the point of that division was that one commander would not be able to command both armies and fleets though - not that a navy was somehow being created all of a sudden.

Besides, the whole concept of an Imperial "Army" or an Imperial "Navy" is neither here nor there where the Crusade and the Heresy is concerned. Those are just convenient labels to describe a military force that was comprised of thousands of Expedition Fleets.

Those Expedition Fleets could include a Space Marine Chapter, various Army regiments, Titan Legion assets, fighter and bomber squadrons, and the ships to carry all of them. All of those entities answered to a single Lord Commander (or a Primarch, or a Space Marine, if they included a Legion contingent). This is a clear parallel of modern task forces fielded by western nations, especially the United States: Air Force, Army, Marine Corps, and Navy assets deploy together and they fall under the command of a General from the branch that has the preponderance of the maneuver (read: combat) assets. Just because that General happens to be an Army General doesn't mean all the sailors, airmen, etc., under his command became part of the U.S. Army.

Really, I challenge the notion that there was an Imperial Army in anything but name. The "Army" units that followed each fleet spoke different languages, had different weapons, trained differently, used different rank structures, etc. There was no homogeneous "Army" structure, culture, etc., even where the Terran units were concerned. About the only common factor between them was that they all answered to one Lord Commander or another - the chief of whatever Expedition Fleet they happened to be in. That Lord Commander didn't answer to a superior who was in charge of, say, five Expedition Fleets. He either answered to the Primarch of the Legion his Expedition Fleet fell under or, more likely, the War Council itself (later, Horus Lupercal): there don't appear to have been Expedition Fleets without Space Marines that fell under a Legion's chain of command, after all.

This is why I think that the absence of an Imperial "Navy" until the reforms of Guilliman is kind of silly. We have naval personnel with naval ranks and naval titles who are counted separately from Army units. What is that, if not a navy that is being used to transport and support forces from a different branch of service?

Incidentally, one of the good things of the Macharius trilogy William King is working on is the fact that, in the second novel, Macharius can't order around the Imperial fleet supporting his Crusade. That was most clever of him, because until now the Warmaster/Lord Solar loophole kind of made a mockery of the division of power that occurred after the Heresy.
 

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1. Primarchs have been mentioned as having plural hearts for a long time now. In ancient fluff, during one of the Lion's duels with Leman Russ, the former stabs the latter through one of his hearts. In more recent fluff, False Gods describes Horus having two hearts.
I've been careful to make sure (to the best of my ability) the author is speaking about the literal heart of a Primarch and not a metaphorical one.

In The Primarchs Ferrus is mentioned to have one heart on a couple occasions:

"Ferrus’s heart stilled as he strove to pinpoint the sound"

He does it again. "Ferrus closed his eyes and listened. He heard a faint and rasping refrain, almost masked by the ambient noise...He listened harder, allowed his heart to still."

The Lion is also mentioned to have one heart in the same book:

"The primarch felt his heart beating a little faster than normal, but it was just an expected response to an emergency."

In Angel Exterminatus Perturabo is mentioned to have a single heart, "His heart battered his ribs and the blood surged around his body in triumph."

And again later on "His muscles surged with blood and golden energy, his heart beating with the strength of a forge-hammer."

In Fear to Tread Sangy is mentioned to have one heart (though it is slightly ambiguous), "‘Look at me,’ ordered Sanguinius. His heart tightened in his chest and a very specific kind of sorrow gripped him as Alotros slowly obeyed."

There's some mention of it in Know no Fear. This one is less clear if there is only one heart, but Guilliman threatens to rip out Lorgar's "living heart out".

I will note that in Deliverance Lost, Alpharius is mentioned to have a secondary heart. Perhaps some Primarchs have two and others have one?

“Ilya felt her mouth begin to hang open and snapped it closed. She had never seen shipmastery like it. The best Imperial naval officers could not have performed such a manoeuvre in less than five minutes, and it would have required hundreds of course-correction warnings and hours of preparation to bring off.”
That's bizzare. My copy matches Nate's:

"Ilya felt her mouth begin to hang open and snapped it closed. She had never seen shipmastery like it. The Imperial Navy could not have performed such a manoeuvre in less than five minutes, and it would have required hundreds of course-correction warnings and hours of preparation to bring off."

It's silly because the point of that division was that one commander would not be able to command both armies and fleets though - not that a navy was somehow being created all of a sudden.
I do not believe this to be the case. In Legion, Lord Commander Namatjira seems to have command of both his naval and ground assets.

In Prospero Burns, Jarl Ogvai requests theater command from the "Commander of the Expedition Fleet". Sounds like the Commander holds sole command of all Imperial forces in the system.

And of course the 5th edition Imperial Guard codex states, "The Imperial Army, as it was, cased to exist. the link between fleet and army was severed - never again would ground commanders be given direct control over interstellar ships."
 

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hailene,

Regarding the navy, you misunderstood me. We're saying the same thing. During the Great Crusade and the Heresy, Lord Commanders commanded both ground and void forces. Afterwards, they did not.

Regarding hearts:

“Loken tore off his helmet and cast it aside, pressing his ear to the Warmaster’s chest. He could hear the Warmaster’s hearts, pounding in a deathly slow double beat.
‘He’s still alive!’ he cried.”

Excerpt From: Graham McNeill. “False Gods.” iBooks.
“[Sanguinius] knew that this hate was deserved. In his hearts, he knew it without hesitation or compromise. The shrieks of abject pain were razors over his spirit, stoking growth of the black and red shadows.”

Excerpt From: James Swallow. “Fear to Tread.” iBooks.
“Curze’s last words came back to him, almost mocking, but Vulkan was powerless. He glared, eyes burning hot with fury. This was the monster, this was the image he was trying so hard to conceal from the remembrancers. His hearts pulsed, and his chest heaved up and down like a giant bellows. Curze was right – he was a killer. That was the purpose for which he had been bred.”

Excerpt From: Nick Kyme. “Vulkan Lives.” iBooks.
And, as mentioned earlier, Primarchs having two hearts goes back a ways - to old articles and short stories. :)
 

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Regarding the navy, you misunderstood me.
Ah, I think I know where I went astray. You mentioned that there was no real Imperial "Army" or Imperial "Navy" pre-Heresy. You made a tiny mistake.

There was an Imperial Army. It contained both the Imperium's ground and naval forces. As you know, it was split into the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy post-Heresy.

And, as mentioned earlier, Primarchs having two hearts goes back a ways - to old articles and short stories.
Hrm, well, we still have recent HH books stating that at least Ferrus, the Lion, and Perturabo (and maybe Lorgar) have a single heart. The only conflict we had in our sources is Sangy, but my citation of his was ambiguous enough to discard.
 

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Ah, I think I know where I went astray. You mentioned that there was no real Imperial "Army" or Imperial "Navy" pre-Heresy. You made a tiny mistake.

There was an Imperial Army. It contained both the Imperium's ground and naval forces. As you know, it was split into the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy post-Heresy.
I know that there was an Imperial Army. :)

I'm arguing that it wasn't really an Imperial Army in the true sense of the word. We haven't seen any evidence of there being this unified branch of service. There wasn't necessarily any commonality between "Imperial Army" units in the 14th Expedition Fleet and those in the 15th Expedition Fleet. They could have been from completely different planets, equipped in a completely different way, speaking completely different languages, using completely different rank structures, etc. The only thing they might have had in common is that they all ultimately answered to a Lord Commander (or a Space Marine equivalent, or a Primarch). All those Lord Commanders of all those Expedition Fleets didn't answer to some High General of the Imperial Army; they answered to the War Council. Once the War Council was dissolved, they answered to Horus Lupercal, who answered to the Emperor.

That's what I mean when I say there really wasn't an "Imperial Army", and that it's been "silly" for the background material to say so far that there was one but that there somehow wasn't an "Imperial Navy." If anything, there is far more evidence for an Imperial Navy that is consistent in rank and structure from Expedition Fleet to Expedition Fleet.

Hrm, well, we still have recent HH books stating that at least Ferrus, the Lion, and Perturabo (and maybe Lorgar) have a single heart. The only conflict we had in our sources is Sangy, but my citation of his was ambiguous enough to discard.
I think it's just a matter of certain authors either making a grammatical error. I don't think it's a coincidence that both the older and the newest novels in the series maintain twin hearts for Primarchs. :)
 

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I'm arguing that it wasn't really an Imperial Army in the true sense of the word. We haven't seen any evidence of there being this unified branch of service.
Forgive me, but I've re-read your post several times and still can't quite grasp what you're saying.

You say that it wasn't really an army...because it wasn't uniform in its organization, language, and rank structures? Are you saying the modern Imperial Guard is not an army as well?

that it's been "silly" for the background material to say so far that there was one but that there somehow wasn't an "Imperial Navy."
I think this is another part where we're missing each other. There was clearly an Imperial navy, but at this time there was yet to be an Imperial Navy. Catch my point?

Just like in World War 2 there was no United States Airforce. It simply did not exist. Did we have an airforce? Of course we did! It was part of the Army--The United States Army Airforce, to be precise.

If someone wrote in a book "The United States Airforce began day time bombing of Germany's industry as early as 1942." it would be wrong. There was no USAF as of 1942. They would have to write the USAAF began daytime bombing.

That's why saying using Imperial Navy would have been wrong. Saying that the Imperial Army would have taken hours...or the Imperial Army's fleet. or an Imperial fleet would all have been okay.

The entity we call the Imperial Navy did not exist until Guilliman said it existed.
 

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I understand your point, Hailene. I'm simply arguing is that it's silly for the background material to make a point of there not being an Imperial Navy (with a capital N) while making it abundantly clear that there was an Imperial Army (with a capital A) that encompassed naval forces as well. And again, I think it's silly because the Imperial Army isn't an "Army" in the traditional sense: it's hardly cohesive or homogeneous.

Where the Imperial Guard is concerned, I have less of an issue with it because even though the units themselves are incredibly varied in terms of culture, there are many consistent points from regiment to regiment - rank structure and weaponry come to mind. Beyond that, you have an organizational structure and chain of command that is universal throughout the Guard: the Commissariat, for instance, and superior officers at the sub-sector, sector, segmentum, and Terran levels.

Incidentally, the comparison with the United States Army Air Corps is neither here nor there. The Air Corps used the same rank structure, uniforms, etc., that the regular Army did. The Imperial navy, on the other hand, use their own ranks, uniforms, and chains of command. In this, they mirror the US Navy - who were always their own service, even if their assets in most theaters of warfare have been subordinate to Army generals in charge of campaigns.

In closing, I get that there was no "Imperial Navy". I'm not saying that there was. I'm arguing that it's silly that the game designers decided there wasn't one, and I dispute that not having an "Imperial Navy" doesn't somehow lend Guilliman's reforms more gravitas. The whole point of those reforms was that a Lord Commander (or any rank that belonged to the Army, really) couldn't command fleets as well. That's it. It wouldn't have detracted from the themes and concepts of the Great Crusade and the Heresy if there had been an "Imperial Navy". In all actuality, it would have made sense. Each fleet would still have been subordinate to a Lord Commander (of the Army), just like modern forces that include aircraft and sea-going vessels generally answer to an Army general.
 

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I think it's silly because the Imperial Army isn't an "Army" in the traditional sense: it's hardly cohesive or homogeneous.
I'm trying to wrap my mind around this. Are you unhappy with the term "Army"? Would you have been happier with another term? It seems that you're wound up tight around your concept of what an Army should be and how that idea does not match up with what the Imperial Army was?

The Imperial Army was a distinct fighting force, despite not having a firm upper echelon, fought for the Imperium and its well-being. How could that not constitute an army in the most basic sense? Sure, other armies might have more specific rules or regulations, but that does not disqualify the Imperial Army.

I'm arguing that it's silly that the game designers decided there wasn't one,
I can see where you're coming from. The naval forces of the Imperial Army are definitely distinct--they have their own ranks, after all.

I can't help but feel that the Imperial Army is modeled after the Astartes Legions. The Imperial Army was conceived only after it was apparent the Legions were not up to the task of unifying the Galaxy--not in the timeframe the Emperor wanted, anyway.

Maybe the concept of separate ranks was due to some minor conceit of the Saturnine admirals.

While snooping around my Horus Heresy book, I noticed this passage in the Battle for the Abyss. A Saturnine rear admiral confesses that the Saturnine fleet is to be decomissioned for a "new Imperial Navy". With capitals.

So perhaps the Imperial Army really was just a slapped-together organization. It took a few years (what doesn't take years in the Imperium, even pre-Heresy?) for them to realize that the Imperial Army isn't an Astartes Legion made of regular humans. That they actually needed to separate the two forces?
 

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I'm trying to wrap my mind around this. Are you unhappy with the term "Army"? Would you have been happier with another term? It seems that you're wound up tight around your concept of what an Army should be and how that idea does not match up with what the Imperial Army was?
I have no problem with the Imperial Army. I have a problem with the fact that the designers decided that there was no "Imperial Navy". :)

I can't help but feel that the Imperial Army is modeled after the Astartes Legions. The Imperial Army was conceived only after it was apparent the Legions were not up to the task of unifying the Galaxy--not in the timeframe the Emperor wanted, anyway.
I don't think that's the case. The Emperor was using levies, mercenaries, and other allies since the Unification Wars. My understanding was that all those disparate units morphed into the Imperial Army when the Great Crusade began. At that point, the Legiones Astartes were "legions" in name only, with only several hundred (or a few thousand) Space Marines in their ranks.

The distinction made by Forgeworld's Heresy books is that the scope of the Great Crusade eventually grew to the point where the Imperial Army could no longer merely support Legiones Astartes operations and "clean up" after their invasions were done. They naturally began undertaking their own missions, as part of their own Expedition Fleets.

Maybe the concept of separate ranks was due to some minor conceit the Saturnine admirals.
No doubt there were a number of social and cultural factors that contributed to this. Compare the Geno Chiliad from Legion with the Therion Cohort from the Raven Guard stories, for instance.

While snooping around my Horus Heresy book, I noticed this passage in the Battle for the Abyss. A Saturnine rear admiral confesses that the Saturnine fleet is to be decomissioned for a "new Imperial Navy". With capitals.
Nice find! :)

So perhaps the Imperial Army really was just a slapped-together organization. It took a few years (what doesn't take years in the Imperium, even pre-Heresy?) for them to realize that the Imperial Army isn't an Astartes Legion made of regular humans. That they actually needed to separate the two forces?
Perhaps. I still don't think they were modeled after the Legiones Astartes, but I do agree that it was a "slapped-together organization", as you put it.
 

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My understanding was that all those disparate units morphed into the Imperial Army when the Great Crusade began.
After reviewing a couple sources, you are indeed correct. The Imperial Army existed at the beginning of the Great Crusade.

Rather than being a copy of the Legions, perhaps they were organized with the same template?
 

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I... don't see how. The Legiones Astartes template is pretty unique. The Imperial Army was comprised of a hodgepodge of different units with completely differing tactics, organization, etc. I don't see how one the Geno Chiliad and the Lucifer Blacks (for instance) can be said to belong to the same single template.
 

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Regarding the Heart thing, I'm fairly certain it's just certain writers not having their shit together and omitting the "s" from what should read "hearts".

After all, if normal Marines have two hearts it's a fair guess that Primarchs have them too. I always thought Primarchs had all the special organs that Marines did, but they were bigger, better and more efficient - hence Calgar surviving in near-void conditions in Know No Fear and Lorgar surviving being impaled by Corax's lightning claw etc.
 

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I... don't see how. The Legiones Astartes template is pretty unique. The Imperial Army was comprised of a hodgepodge of different units with completely differing tactics, organization, etc. I don't see how one the Geno Chiliad and the Lucifer Blacks (for instance) can be said to belong to the same single template.
Well, for the Lucifer Blacks, we really don't know how they functioned before they were largely wiped out, right?

For the Geno Chiliad, here's a quote from Legion:

"Grammaticus found the operational structure of the Geno Five-Two Chiliad quite fascinating. Formed during the savage continental wars that had engulfed Terra at the end of the Age of Strife, the geno had proved to be a most effective and adaptable force. No wonder the Emperor had permitted them to endure after Unification. No wonder he had looked upon their system and stolen from it."

So the Legions took a note from the Geno Chiliad. At least in part.

After all, if normal Marines have two hearts it's a fair guess that Primarchs have them too
I don't believe this is the case. We've seen multiple times that even apthocaries can't make heads or tails of the innards of a Primarch. They're definitely different.

Also a legionary was a originally human made post-human. Primarchs were designed from the ground up to be something special.

I think the Primarchs are much more streamlined.
 
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