[zerachiel76]

There is a paragraph in Massacre (not Extermination but I can't change the title) that says:

"It remains a testimony to the undying resilience of the Legion that despite the losses at Istvaan V - losses thought fatal to the Legion at the time - it was able to maintain coherence and recover it's strength......"

This paragraph really bugs me. It's been shown in the same part of Massacre that around 1,660 Legionnaires survived Istvaan V (83,000 legionnaires went to Istvaan and 98% of them died - 2% of 83,000 is 1,660) and the total size of the Legion was 89,000 making a total of approximately 7,660 Salamanders surviving after Istvaan.

Why does anyone think that only having around 7,660 surviving Legionnaires is fatal for the Salamanders? After all the Emperors Children survived having being reduced to around either 200 or 400 (I can't remember which). The Raven Guard were reduced to around 4,000 Legionnaires so they were in a worse position and yet it's not noted that these losses were "thought to be fatal". There would have been Salamander apothecaries who didn't go to Istvaan so that can't be the reason and the Legions geneseed stocks were safe?

Is this simply a mistake, artistic license or something else? There is no record of the Salamander's geneseed being as destructive as say the Space Wolves or the Blood Angels so the geneseed rejection rate isn't noted as particularly high (unless there's something I've missed).

 

[Vaz]

The Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons both had a primarch, emperor, and 17+ other legions and innumberable army units to support them while participating in their 'humanitarian' campaigns.

Fast forward 200 years and 8 legions and their primarchs (for all intents and purposes) are trying to destroy them, trapped half a galaxy away from their father and their primarch missing or dead, have seen one primarch killed, and over 200,000 killed astartes.

That is a fair difference.



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[zerachiel76]

The Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons both had a primarch, emperor, and 17+ other legions and innumberable army units to support them while participating in their 'humanitarian' campaigns.

Fast forward 200 years and 8 legions and their primarchs (for all intents and purposes) are trying to destroy them, trapped half a galaxy away from their father and their primarch missing or dead, have seen one primarch killed, and over 200,000 killed astartes.

That is a fair difference.

Thanks for your point but I disagree with some of it. I agree about the Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons having their Primarch but since it took Magnus to strike a deal with Tzeentch to save his Legion and it took exceptional purity checks and using Fulgrim's own body (in a process I don't understand how it works - did they cut bits off Fulgrim??) for the Emperor's Children to survive since they has no geneseed reserves since they'd been destroyed so only had the progenoid glands within the survivors.

This isn't the case for the Salamanders as there were 3,000 marines on Nocturne and another 4,000 spread amongst the stars, all with up to 2 progenoid glands each with a potential to create up to another 14,000 Salamanders. They would also have had their stores of geneseed on Nocturne so they could simply create more Salamanders. They didn't need Vulkan to create more Salamanders as was proved when he eventually vanished. If they'd have needed him to create more Salamanders then as soon as he disappeared the Salamanders would have slowly died out. I can understand if Nocturne itself was under attack but it wasn't and as far as we know, never was during the Heresy.

Your point also doesn't deal with the aspect of the Raven Guard being reduced to 3,000 marines and although they were under the same threat at the Salamanders, their losses were never described as being a "fatal blow"

 

[Vaz]

*shrugs*

I'm only suggesting a way in which it can make sense. Plus there are only so many ways they can say things. At the end of the day, it is surprising (from the 30k pov) that the three loyallist legions survived to the 40k timeline. They theoretically shouldn't have survived; i'd have considered (in horus's position) to annihilate Medusa, Nocturne and Deliverance rendering them permanently disabled.

The 'fatal' part likely refers to the 14000 replacement astartes being completely untempered and battle experienced, compared to having 250 year old combat vets.



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[Child-of-the-Emperor]

I think you're reading too much into it. The Salamanders lost the vast majority of their Legion (and it was thought Vulkan as well) on the sands of Isstvan V - a loss which may have proven fatal. In fact, the quote only says "losses thought fatal... at the time". That makes perfect sense to me.

 

[hailene]

Remember, when the Emperor's Children were only able to recover because they found Fulgrim. They were able to synthesize new geneseed with Fulgrim.

After Istvaan, Vulkan was lost and presumed dead by many. This could have broken the Legion's spirit.

 

[zerachiel76]

I think you're reading too much into it. The Salamanders lost the vast majority of their Legion (and it was thought Vulkan as well) on the sands of Isstvan V - a loss which may have proven fatal. In fact, the quote only says "losses thought fatal... at the time". That makes perfect sense to me.

Fair enough, I did wonder if it was simply an "artistic license" comment and a generic throw away statement.

Remember, when the Emperor's Children were only able to recover because they found Fulgrim. They were able to synthesize new geneseed with Fulgrim.

After Istvaan, Vulkan was lost and presumed dead by many. This could have broken the Legion's spirit.

Fair point on both points, by the way is there any fluff describing exactly how geneseed was synthesised using Fulgrim?

Also, was this knowledge and technology still available as if so the Raven Guard and the Salamanders (once Vulkan was reunited with them) could have used it to restore their numbers. Then again it makes sense that it was secret and so Corax (and later Vulkan) didn't know what to do and so Corax tried the trick with the geneseed from the vault on Terra.

 

[Words_of_Truth]

I think it's just bigging up the Salamanders imo.

 

[forkmaster]

This paragraph really bugs me. It's been shown in the same part of Massacre that around 1,660 Legionnaires survived Istvaan V (83,000 legionnaires went to Istvaan and 98% of them died - 2% of 83,000 is 1,660) and the total size of the Legion was 89,000 making a total of approximately 7,660 Salamanders surviving after Istvaan.

Why does anyone think that only having around 7,660 surviving Legionnaires is fatal for the Salamanders? After all the Emperors Children survived having being reduced to around either 200 or 400 (I can't remember which). The Raven Guard were reduced to around 4,000 Legionnaires so they were in a worse position and yet it's not noted that these losses were "thought to be fatal". There would have been Salamander apothecaries who didn't go to Istvaan so that can't be the reason and the Legions geneseed stocks were safe?

It's probable for survival but the odds are against them! Better than for the Raven Guard at least.

 

[ckcrawford]

*shrugs*

I'm only suggesting a way in which it can make sense. Plus there are only so many ways they can say things. At the end of the day, it is surprising (from the 30k pov) that the three loyallist legions survived to the 40k timeline. They theoretically shouldn't have survived; i'd have considered (in horus's position) to annihilate Medusa, Nocturne and Deliverance rendering them permanently disabled.

The 'fatal' part likely refers to the 14000 replacement astartes being completely untempered and battle experienced, compared to having 250 year old combat vets.

Pretty much agree with what has been said. Also remember that the Salamanders have the hardest initiation of the astartes. Though in our point of view we could look at this number and say they could have still been able to restart a legion, the other part is the fact that the Salamanders probably wouldn't have gone on a recruiting spree due to their ideology and doctrine.

I do see your speculation, however its also important to note that new fluff has been implored to make things more plausible for the 40k world. Now we can see how possible it is for the Salamanders to make successor chapters.

 

[hailene]

i'd have considered (in horus's position) to annihilate Medusa, Nocturne and Deliverance rendering them permanently disabled.

Remember, it was a mad dash for Terra once the Horus Heresy started.

Horus didn't have the time or forces to crack a Primarch's homeworld's defenses. There was no better time for Horus to attack Terra than the second the Drop Site Massacre finished. Every second wasted on taking out Medusa, Nocturne, or Deliverance was one second more for the Dark Angels and Ultramarines to come to the rescue. One second more for the Imperial Fists to fortify Terra.

 

[Rems]

Remember, it was a mad dash for Terra once the Horus Heresy started.

Horus didn't have the time or forces to crack a Primarch's homeworld's defenses. There was no better time for Horus to attack Terra than the second the Drop Site Massacre finished. Every second wasted on taking out Medusa, Nocturne, or Deliverance was one second more for the Dark Angels and Ultramarines to come to the rescue. One second more for the Imperial Fists to fortify Terra.

Which begs the question of why it took 9 long years to get to Terra.

 

[Angel of Blood]

Fast forward 200 years and 8 legions and their primarchs (for all intents and purposes) are trying to destroy them, trapped half a galaxy away from their father and their primarch missing or dead, have seen one primarch killed, and over 200,000 killed astartes.

Think you're missing the major point of Vaz's post here.

 

[hailene]

Which begs the question of why it took 9 long years to get to Terra.

Even with the help of the Chaos gods, it still takes a long time to travel the galaxy. Plus a bit of refitting after the mauling of Istvaan III and V.

Then clearing the path to Terra as well. Look at what the Alpha Legion had to do in Extermination.

 

[Words_of_Truth]

Also I'd add that the worlds of those legions were quite out of the way of the path of the advancing chaos forces. Istvaan is in the far galactic north whilst medusa is int he galactic west past Caliban, and Deliverance and Nocturne are in the galactic south. They'd have to go out a fair way to deal with them

 

[Rems]

Even with the help of the Chaos gods, it still takes a long time to travel the galaxy. Plus a bit of refitting after the mauling of Istvaan III and V.

Not especially. From the Eastern Fringe to Terra is a 6-8 month journey (3rd ed rulebook).

Then clearing the path to Terra as well. Look at what the Alpha Legion had to do in Extermination.

Did they really need to clear a path to Terra though? It's not like they need to travel by land and their forts standing in the path of Horus' armies after all. He could simply jump in the warp and pop out in the Sol system.

There never would have been a better time to strike Terra then after Isstvaan. Terra was not yet fortified and it's only defenders were a substantially weakened Imperial Fists. All of loyalist legions were mauled, scattered across the galaxy or unaware there had been a betrayal, some all three.

Horus had the concentrated force of 7 legions. He could have crushed Terra.

 

[hailene]

pop out in the Sol system.

Evidently not.

Apparently the galaxy is less of an ocean with solar systems as islands and more like a network of train stations. From Extermination:

"Paramar stood...as a vital lynchpin of the Imperium's tangled skein of empyreal travel...[and] Paramar lies in almost direct conjunction between Isstvan and Terra."

They needed to clear a path to Terra one way or another. And that'd take time and materiel. That's the third reason why Horus wanted to take Paramar because it was a massive staging ground and supply base for the Great Crusade.