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If this is the lesson Russ sacrificed his sons and risked his life for, then he is the fool, not Angron.



Were Night Haunter and Guilliman protected by plot armour or were the Wolves/Alpha Legion?

We have extensive evidence showing us that Marines are nothing to Primarchs, we have one source where they suddenly become credible threats. Is it more likely that every prior source is exaggerating, or just this one?
Depends on where you stand, we know that Gulliman and curze survive the heresy and are brought down in desperate incidents.

Also keep in mind gullimans advisors words. One lucky shot to his head would have killed him.

Russ knew going in that the world eaters were dangerous he stated that they attacked many allies before this event.
 

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Depends on where you stand, we know that Gulliman and curze survive the heresy and are brought down in desperate incidents.
Obviously we know that Night Haunter and Guilliman survive the incidents of the book. My question was, is it plot (their stated later demise) that saves them from logical danger, or was it logical ability that saved them from plot (the need for drama)? Given the evidence we have been given of Primarch's ability should they have been placed in danger at all? Given the evidence we have been given of Primarch's ability should they have been able to escape the danger they were in?

Also keep in mind gullimans advisors words. One lucky shot to his head would have killed him.
(Having not read the novel)
1) Fulgrim was shot in the head and suffered no lasting damage.
2) We are repeatedly shown that non-Primarchs have absolutely no idea what it takes to kill a Primarch. Hell, we are directly told that medical professionals are unable to recognize the innards of a Primarch.

Russ knew going in that the world eaters were dangerous he stated that they attacked many allies before this event.
So Russ knowingly and willingly provoked berserkers (ie. people with a lack of control over their own violence), knowingly and willingly sacrificing hundreds of his men, knowingly and willingly nearly died (he probably should have), just to teach Angron a lesson about tactical awareness? Not a lesson about restraint, or a lesson about trusting allies (after all Russ initiates the battle) but a lesson about military tactics. That is completely out of character for Russ. He never approaches another brother with tactical advice, he in fact takes pains to paint an image of himself and his legion as not being tactical. He takes pains to reduce his losses in future battles and doesn't seem to take undue risks. In short Russ planning for the Night of the Wolf to turn out the way it did is completely out of character.
 

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Obviously we know that Night Haunter and Guilliman survive the incidents of the book. My question was, is it plot (their stated later demise) that saves them from logical danger, or was it logical ability that saved them from plot (the need for drama)? Given the evidence we have been given of Primarch's ability should they have been placed in danger at all? Given the evidence we have been given of Primarch's ability should they have been able to escape the danger they were in?



(Having not read the novel)
1) Fulgrim was shot in the head and suffered no lasting damage.
2) We are repeatedly shown that non-Primarchs have absolutely no idea what it takes to kill a Primarch. Hell, we are directly told that medical professionals are unable to recognize the innards of a Primarch.

So Russ knowingly and willingly provoked berserkers (ie. people with a lack of control over their own violence), knowingly and willingly sacrificing hundreds of his men, knowingly and willingly nearly died (he probably should have), just to teach Angron a lesson about tactical awareness? Not a lesson about restraint, or a lesson about trusting allies (after all Russ initiates the battle) but a lesson about military tactics. That is completely out of character for Russ. He never approaches another brother with tactical advice, he in fact takes pains to paint an image of himself and his legion as not being tactical. He takes pains to reduce his losses in future battles and doesn't seem to take undue risks. In short Russ planning for the Night of the Wolf to turn out the way it did is completely out of character.
Shooting anything enough times with a high explosive armour piercing weapon and you're going to kill it.

Since gulliman dove for cover and didn't rush them I'd say he wasn't sure he'd survive.

Exactly Angron is a berzerker that means he has only one method of attack. Pissing them off is the best way to beat them as you'll manipulate them into doing what you want.
 

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Exactly Angron is a berzerker that means he has only one method of attack. Pissing them off is the best way to beat them as you'll manipulate them into doing what you want.
Again... who was the one pissed off here? Russ, who attacked first? Or Angron who defended himself?

And that's the thing, Russ did attack first. Angron still told him before the whole thing started to escalate that he should leave before the confrontation turned into something Russ would regret. So what you are saying with all this intentional flanking and berzerker manipulation nonsense is that Russ wasted the lives of a number of legionnaires from 2 legions by forcing a confrontation with Angron, one that achieved nothing. That Russ is the one to blame for kicking off a needless fight that cost both legions several warriors. And as someone else has said, the lesson meant nothing to Angron because he did not care whether he lived or died. He might as well have died on Nuceria as far as he was concerned.

So if we take it your way, the Wolves did lose the Night of the Wolf. They took needless casualties while failing to achieve their objective (if teaching Angron and the World Eaters a lesson by flanking Angron was in fact that). And you can say what you will, but the fact that the Wolves fought the "broken" legion in a head to head fight and came off worse in terms of casualties would have majorly stung their pride.

If we take your interpretation it makes Russ look like a reckless, arrogant idiot. But if we take it as Russ losing a duel to Angron, but having the Space Wolves stepping in, not by any specific design for that moment, but simply because they naturally had enough focus, discipline and tactical sense to keep track of the primarch battle where the World Eaters didn't, it paints a very different picture, one where the Wolves come out as looking far better than the World Eaters. And one that paints a more sensible picture of Russ too, one that fits more with his character IMO. It shows a Russ that was capable of thinking quickly and adapting, and turning a moment of personal defeat into something positive when his sons came to support him.

Curze also beat two primarchs one of which was hunting him on curzes own turf for months.
Also, please point out to me where Curze beat two primarchs? Holding them off, while still quite impressive, is not even remotely the same thing as beating them.
 

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Shooting anything enough times with a high explosive armour piercing weapon and you're going to kill it.

Since gulliman dove for cover and didn't rush them I'd say he wasn't sure he'd survive.

Exactly Angron is a berzerker that means he has only one method of attack. Pissing them off is the best way to beat them as you'll manipulate them into doing what you want.
You theory falls apart due to the fact that Russ struck FIRST.

And due to the fact that Angron was easily beating Russ verbally before Russ struck first.

Russ overstepped his bounds and wrote checks his body could'nt cash.

Someone else could have emparted Russ ''lesson'' then Russ did.
 

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I dont remember the exact words but Angron says something to the fact of "I should go to Terra and take the tyrants head myself" and that was when the shooting started.
 

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Shooting anything enough times with a high explosive armour piercing weapon and you're going to kill it.
Sure. How many shots do you think it would take to kill a space ship ? Just because something is achievable doesn't mean its feasible.

Since gulliman dove for cover and didn't rush them I'd say he wasn't sure he'd survive.
Or he wanted to minimize injury. We commonly see the Primarchs react to danger by attempting to minimize that danger, but we have yet to see one killed so easily.

Exactly Angron is a berzerker that means he has only one method of attack. Pissing them off is the best way to beat them as you'll manipulate them into doing what you want.
So Russ wanted Angron to kill him? He wanted the World Eaters to kill loads of Wolves? Seriously, just think about what you're saying.
 

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Sure. How many shots do you think it would take to kill a space ship ? Just because something is achievable doesn't mean its feasible.

One shot.

Or he wanted to minimize injury. We commonly see the Primarchs react to danger by attempting to minimize that danger, but we have yet to see one killed so easily.

I dunno I'd say beheading would be called an easy kill

So Russ wanted Angron to kill him? He wanted the World Eaters to kill loads of Wolves? Seriously, just think about what you're saying.
It's the world eaters, Russ went in there knowing their reputation. In the short story after Des'ha It's made pretty clear the world eaters were killing allies before they had the nails.

You would have to be pretty stupid to assume there would be no violence. They all would know that.
 

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One shot.

Where would you shoot a ship the size of a city to kill it?

I dunno I'd say beheading would be called an easy kill


Sure, beheading via epic duel between demi-gods. Easy kill.

You would have to be pretty stupid to assume there would be no violence. They all would know that.
1) I'm not sure that's true. Both Primarchs seem initially reluctant to fight. Angron even tries to get Russ to leave without bloodshed.
2) If Russ' goal was to start a fight then why does he bother talking to Angron? Russ doesn't need to provoke Angron, as he believes he has the legal and moral right to sanction him. If all Russ wants is a fight, then he should've opened with the punch.
3) You'd have to be pretty stupid to base a plan around being able to convince a lobotomized berserker to spare your life after you've made a legitimate attempt to kill him.
4) You'd also have to be pretty stupid to create a plan around large numbers of your men dieing for no good reason.
 

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It's the world eaters, Russ went in there knowing their reputation. In the short story after Des'ha It's made pretty clear the world eaters were killing allies before they had the nails.

You would have to be pretty stupid to assume there would be no violence. They all would know that.
Except there are a number of other examples of where the World Eaters and/or Angron interact with other legions without any violence. Then there is the fact that Angron still told Russ to leave peacefully before there was any violence. And then there is also the fact that it was Russ who threw the first blow, not Angron or any of the World Eaters. If Russ had left peacefully before/during/after the verbal encounter there would have been no violence. But he drew his weapon first and attacked Angron. So yeah, your point doesn't hold any merit right now.

You make it sound as though the World Eaters would just randomly attack anyone else at any given time for no real reason. And we know that even at their worst, (before falling to Khorne during the HH that is, and even then they were able to work with the other traitors), that wasn't the case. Or it would have been completely impossible for the World Eaters to work alongside the other traitor legions at Isstvan, or join up with Lorgar for his Shadow Crusade.
 

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And of course the second part, the one about Astartes fighting Astartes, we have the Night of the Wolf as one example of Astartes fighting against each other pre-Prospero.

In Massacre, Banestrike rounds have been in development by the Alpha Legion and given to the Sons of Horus as well.

The old arguments come back; if the Wolves were Executioners, why were they not larger in size? Why did they not have specialised equipment for Legion/Primarch slaying?



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The Alpha Legion were/are more pragmatic than the Ultramarines then.

They probably came up with their own version of Guilliman's theoretical/practical way before him.
 

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In Massacre, Banestrike rounds have been in development by the Alpha Legion and given to the Sons of Horus as well.

The old arguments come back; if the Wolves were Executioners, why were they not larger in size? Why did they not have specialised equipment for Legion/Primarch slaying?
Equipment and physical prowess might not have been as important to the Emperor as motivation and psychology.
 

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One thing that occurred to me is maybe Russ' psychic howl which was so effective against the Thousand Sons actually made Angron more effective as we know what effect psychic abilities have on Angron's nails? Russ probably wouldn't have known this and so he howled as he probably always did and sent Angron into a rage Russ wasn't prepared for.
 

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The Alpha Legion were/are more pragmatic than the Ultramarines then.

They probably came up with their own version of Guilliman's theoretical/practical way before him.
No, the Banestrike rounds were a result of the Alpha Legion knowing they were going to be fighting other Space Marines. To the Ultramarines, and every other legion, it simply wasn't a theoretical worth considering. Space Marines didn't go to war with Space Marines. Once the Heresy broke out though the Ultramarines adapted, running theoreticals and practicals against every other legion, even the loyalists. That smacks of pragmatism. The Alpha Legion merely had prior knowledge.

I doubt the Alpha Legion came up with it before hand, being the last legion founded and Alpharius the last primarch found, be a large margin. Guilliman was around, leading his legion long, long before.
 

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No, the Banestrike rounds were a result of the Alpha Legion knowing they were going to be fighting other Space Marines. To the Ultramarines, and every other legion, it simply wasn't a theoretical worth considering. Space Marines didn't go to war with Space Marines. Once the Heresy broke out though the Ultramarines adapted, running theoreticals and practicals against every other legion, even the loyalists. That smacks of pragmatism. The Alpha Legion merely had prior knowledge.

I doubt the Alpha Legion came up with it before hand, being the last legion founded and Alpharius the last primarch found, be a large margin. Guilliman was around, leading his legion long, long before.
We have an example of what the Ultramarines would have thought of running theoreticals against other Marines pre-heresy. From Know no Fear:

‘Sergeant Thiel. Do you happen to know why he was under censure?’ ‘I do, sir,’ says Jaer. ‘His commanding officer discovered that he was running theoreticals on how to fight and defeat Space Marines, sir. Thiel claimed, in his defence, that he had run theoreticals on all other major adversaries, and it was a tactical blind spot not to know how to fight the Legions. He said, as I understand it, that the Space Marines of the Imperium were the greatest warriors in the galaxy, and thus had an obligation to understand how to fight and defeat the greatest warriors in the galaxy. Thiel declared that Space Marines were the only opponents left worth any theoretical study. His theoreticals were regarded as treasonous thought, and he was referred to the flagship for censure.’ ‘That was his infraction?’ asks Gage. ‘Looks bloody pitiful from where we’re standing, doesn’t it?’ asks Jaer.
 

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No, the Banestrike rounds were a result of the Alpha Legion knowing they were going to be fighting other Space Marines. To the Ultramarines, and every other legion, it simply wasn't a theoretical worth considering. Space Marines didn't go to war with Space Marines. Once the Heresy broke out though the Ultramarines adapted, running theoreticals and practicals against every other legion, even the loyalists. That smacks of pragmatism. The Alpha Legion merely had prior knowledge.

I doubt the Alpha Legion came up with it before hand, being the last legion founded and Alpharius the last primarch found, be a large margin. Guilliman was around, leading his legion long, long before.
Isn't that the beauty of the AL? In the short time they were founded, they developed this paranoia of their brother legions to the point where they started anti-Astartes weapons production at such an early stage.
 

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No, the Banestrike rounds were a result of the Alpha Legion knowing they were going to be fighting other Space Marines. To the Ultramarines, and every other legion, it simply wasn't a theoretical worth considering. Space Marines didn't go to war with Space Marines. Once the Heresy broke out though the Ultramarines adapted, running theoreticals and practicals against every other legion, even the loyalists. That smacks of pragmatism. The Alpha Legion merely had prior knowledge.

I doubt the Alpha Legion came up with it before hand, being the last legion founded and Alpharius the last primarch found, be a large margin. Guilliman was around, leading his legion long, long before.
The alpha legions are spies, and given their nature they're going to be crazy prepared for everything.

It's also ironic that none of the primarchs would consider yeah maybe we should study astartes since there was 20 of us.
 

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Equipment and physical prowess might not have been as important to the Emperor as motivation and psychology.
Equipment is the easiest way to give someone an edge over a specific foe. Motivation and psychology have a limited role in creating such an edge, especially between two opponents of such similar motivation and psychology.

And of course the Wolves did not possess any advantage in motivation or psychology over other Marines. Nor did they possess greater physical prowess, or greater size. The only remaining ways to improve their odds against Marines would be equipment and training. They weren't given any special equipment and they weren't given any special training. How then can they be more effective as Executioners than another Legion?
 

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Equipment is the easiest way to give someone an edge over a specific foe. Motivation and psychology have a limited role in creating such an edge, especially between two opponents of such similar motivation and psychology.

And of course the Wolves did not possess any advantage in motivation or psychology over other Marines. Nor did they possess greater physical prowess, or greater size. The only remaining ways to improve their odds against Marines would be equipment and training. They weren't given any special equipment and they weren't given any special training. How then can they be more effective as Executioners than another Legion?
Let's analyze the legions.

The word bearers are a bunch of wimps who build churches.
The world eaters tactical book is charge directly at nearest enemy regardless of what happens
Emperors children is more concerned with perfection than getting shit done.
Ultramarines are incapable of thinking out of the box. Frankly by this time the one guy who considered the possibility of astartes vs astartes combat was disgraced.
The dark angels I really don't know the lion probably had his own agenda
Death guard did frontal assaults
Iron warriors and imperial fists worked best against walls
the luna wolves used tip of the spear tactics.
blood angels were CC specialists with have a serious flaw.
Alpha legion avoid direct combat with complicated plans
Night lords use terror
Raven guard use stealth.
salamanders like to burn things
Iron hands appear to use overwhelming force
White scars use fast attack.
The 1K sons are psykers whatever their others tactics are I don't know.
Then finally the wolves, they do the berserker charge of the world eaters and BA but they seem to have more control over it, they also use pack tactics as evident in the night of the wolves.

Aside from the DA and maybe alpha legion the wolves were the only ones who could be executioners, everyone else either didn't specialize in what it would take to kill an astartes. Or wasn't flexible enough to get the job one.
 
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