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If I remember correctly Russ loss the fight to Angron in martial combat but won the overall battle by having the Space wolves surround Angron and could of killed Angron but didn't. what I don't understand is Russ plays the executioner role and why didn't Russ kill off Angron?

I mean what was the point to teach Angron anything when you are the executioner and the role is to kill off.

Is that why the Emperor order Horus to rein in Angron becaus Russ failed?
 

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Russ confronted Angron of his own volition. The Emperor didn't have anything to do with The Night of the Wolf (IIRC, that is what their confrontation was called).
 

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As far as we know (yet we'll never know for sure) Russ confronted Angron, as DeathJester said, of his own volition. We also don't know for sure whether Russ and the Wolves were officially sanctioned executioners or took the mantle for themselves.

Regardless, Russ wanted to teach Angron a lesson, but failed. Angron didn't even understand what Russ was trying to achieve until Lorgar explained it to him during the Shadow Crusade.
 

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If I remember correctly Russ loss the fight to Angron in martial combat but won the overall battle by having the Space wolves surround Angron and could of killed Angron but didn't. what I don't understand is Russ plays the executioner role and why didn't Russ kill off Angron?
1) The Space Wolves believe they are the Emperor's executioner's but its not clear that Russ believes the same. Nor is it clear that they actually are.
2) It's also not clear when the Wolves began to believe this about themselves. They may not have thought of themselves as executioner's until later sent against the Thousand Sons.
3) Russ was not in a position to personally kill Angron. As you point out Angron had won the individual fight. If Russ wanted Angron dead he would've had to sacrifice himself, he was not willing to make that sacrifice just to teach a lesson.
 

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Malacador seems to believe the wolves are executioners, according to the unremembered empire he sent a pack of wolves to watch the loyal primarchs.
 

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I haven't read Empire so I can't say for certain, however if those packs are anything like the ones watching Sanguinius in Fear to Tread then they're not really executioners. There's never any suggestion, and it would be rediculous of there had been, that these Wolves would be capable of executing a wayward Primarch. They are simply there to watch and report back. When a unit is actually sent to provide potential punishment on a Primarch the Emperor sends Custodes not Wolves.
 

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MEQinc,

Are you so sure of that?

“‘We know what must be done, brothers. From this moment onwards, a Space Wolf must be within reach of the Angel at all times.’ Redknife continued his address to the rest of his squad, ...
‘Those were Malcador’s orders,’ said Stiel. ‘Until he countermands them.’
‘If he countermands them,’ Redknife replied.
The Rune Priest halted, and the question that had been pressing at him since the moment they set off for the Nartaba system pushed to the front of his thoughts. ‘Have we considered… if we enact our orders to the full letter… What will become of us?’
‘That is obvious, skald,’ said one of the other Wolves, a young blade named Valdin. ‘We will die. They will kill us all. Did you think there would be any other outcome?’
...
‘Our deaths are assured. But we must do this. We must be ready to enact the ultimate sanction upon Sanguinius, if the moment comes.’
Stiel shook his head. ‘I hear you say the words and I obey. But I cannot accept that we might attempt to kill a…’ He faltered, unable to say the words.”

Excerpt From: James Swallow. “Fear to Tread.” iBooks.
 

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The Emperor Protects
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They specifically state in Unremembered Empire that they are there to watch over the remaining loyalist Primarchs for any sign of treachery and to kill them if necessary, as sanctioned by Russ and Malcador. Guilliman and others often refer to the Wolves and Russ as the Executioners/The Executioner on multiple occasions. I was going to make a thread before on all the various references to them being called as such or signs that they are, and tbh, from it all now, I think it's more than just their opinion. Many others see them as such as well.
 

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The new Heresy book by Forgeworld also strongly hints at the "Executioner" theme for the Vlka Fenryka. When listing the last events leading up to the Heresy, there are two that have "ALL DATA REDACTED". Guess what Legion is listed as being associated with those two events (ironic, given that everything else is, well, redacted)? The Space Wolves. :wink:
 

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I haven't read Empire so I can't say for certain, however if those packs are anything like the ones watching Sanguinius in Fear to Tread then they're not really executioners. There's never any suggestion, and it would be rediculous of there had been, that these Wolves would be capable of executing a wayward Primarch. They are simply there to watch and report back. When a unit is actually sent to provide potential punishment on a Primarch the Emperor sends Custodes not Wolves.
Given what we know of the wolves of all the astartes they have the best chance of killing a primarch who knows they are coming.

Other's stated that they are, and in empire gulliman states their purpose.

EDIT:

Oh yeah almost forgot.

Stating that russ could be angron based on a single battle where he wasn't even trying to kill him isn't a good comparison.

Russ's purpose was to show angron his flaws as a commander, he knew angron would come at him without holding back so he had a plan around that.

It's never stated who's stronger after vulkan but I'm willing to bet angron is equal to russ.
 

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Guess what Legion is listed as being associated with those two events (ironic, given that everything else is, well, redacted)? The Space Wolves
With the release of The Unremembered Empire, I do not believe the Space Wolves had a direct hand in destroying those two Legions. A conversation between Guilliman and Faffnr, his Space Wolf executioner:

G: Your reputation as the sanction is well known, and perhaps undeserved. We all serve according to our courage...

F: You heard the fate that befell Prospero?

G: The Wolves were unleashed to issue sanction to Magnus.

F: Yes. Not so undeserved a reputation after all, eh

So that means, up to the burning of Prospero, the reputation may have been undeserved...hard to have an undeserved reputation IF they had destroyed two Legions previously.

Unless there's a 3-strike you're out policy on reputations or something.
 

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MEQinc,

Are you so sure of that?
I was... but it seems I rather drastically misremembered parts. Thanks for pointing out my error.

Given what we know of the wolves of all the astartes they have the best chance of killing a primarch who knows they are coming.
What is it that we know about the Wolves that makes this the case? Given what we know of the Primarchs I don't think a dozen of any Legion would be enough to give any Primarch even a moments pause.

Stating that russ could be angron based on a single battle where he wasn't even trying to kill him isn't a good comparison.
I assume this in response to point 3 in my first post? I'm which case I wasn't saying that Russ couldn't beat Angron, I'm saying that he hadn't in that battle. The OP was wondering why Russ didn't kill him at the end of that fight, I was just pointing out that he couldn't really at that point I'm time.
 

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With the release of The Unremembered Empire, I do not believe the Space Wolves had a direct hand in destroying those two Legions. A conversation between Guilliman and Faffnr, his Space Wolf executioner:

G: Your reputation as the sanction is well known, and perhaps undeserved. We all serve according to our courage...

F: You heard the fate that befell Prospero?

G: The Wolves were unleashed to issue sanction to Magnus.

F: Yes. Not so undeserved a reputation after all, eh

So that means, up to the burning of Prospero, the reputation may have been undeserved...hard to have an undeserved reputation IF they had destroyed two Legions previously.

Unless there's a 3-strike you're out policy on reputations or something.
Keep in mind they were forbidden to speak of what happened to the two legions. When that conversation took place they were in a room with many other's. Some of which may have had no knowledge of what happened.

It's one thing to speak about it between brothers or between ones who know about it, but hinting at things to a general audience is a bad idea.

What is it that we know about the Wolves that makes this the case? Given what we know of the Primarchs I don't think a dozen of any Legion would be enough to give any Primarch even a moments pause.
Same novel ten alpha legionaries nearly kill Gulliman, the only reason why he wasn't killed is because the one holding a bolter to his head hesitated.

From what we know of the wolves they wouldn't hold back. They also were the only squad in the novel that wounded curze in his home turf. They don't care about survival, they believe in completing the mission above all else.
 

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Keep in mind they were forbidden to speak of what happened to the two legions. When that conversation took place they were in a room with many other's. Some of which may have had no knowledge of what happened.
Guilliman would know. Guilliman would not suggest that their reputation was undeserved if he knew them to be responsible for the others.

From what we know of the wolves they wouldn't hold back.
What we know of the Wolves is that they absolutely will hold back, until told not to. What is it that Kharn says about them? That they should've called themselves dogs. That unlike the World Eaters (and the Night Lords) they can be restrained. If all it took to be the executioners or to take out a Primarch was to not hold back then either of those Legions would be better.

They don't care about survival, they believe in completing the mission above all else.
Several other Legions hold the mission as being of paramount importance. Including the Alpha Legion, who hesitate to kill Guilliman. That being the case I don't think its fair to say the none of the Space Wolves would hesitate.


Also I can't speak to the events you are referencing directly but I'll just point out that its a long way from injured or even 'near dead' to dead for a Primarch. How many Primarchs have we seen survive wounds that should've been mortal? How many have we seen pick themselves up from being moments from death to peak effectiveness in seconds. How many have seen kill their way through marines like they weren't even there?
 

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With the release of The Unremembered Empire, I do not believe the Space Wolves had a direct hand in destroying those two Legions. A conversation between Guilliman and Faffnr, his Space Wolf executioner: ...
You don't?

In case anyone is interested, here is the conversation in question:

“What is your duty, pack-leader?’
‘Our duty is what our duty has always been – to do what others will not. To do the unthinkable, if the unthinkable must be thought.’
‘Your reputation as the sanction is well known,’ said Guilliman, ‘and perhaps undeserved. We all serve according to our courage.’
‘Wolves serve beyond that. We are the executioner’s sons.’
‘Who have you come to execute, Faffnr Bludbroder?’
Faffnr hesitated. He reached under his pelt and produced a sheaf of parchment.
‘I see no point hiding it,’ he said, holding the document out. ‘Read for yourself, Jarl Guilliman.’
‘No, tell me in your own words.’
Faffnr kept the parchment extended.
‘Look at it at least. See the seal of the Wolf King, and beside it the sigil of Malcador. Know where this instruction comes from, and the authority it contains.’
Guilliman took the document, unfolded it and studied the marks.
‘Authenticate it if you must,’ said Faffnr.
‘I don’t have to. This is real.’
‘You heard the fate that befell Prospero?’ asked the pack-leader.
‘The Wolves were unleashed to issue sanction to Magnus.’
‘Yes. Not so undeserved a reputation after all, eh?’
‘Go on.’
Faffnr paused. In the eye slots of his straked and knotted leather hood, his golden eyes blinked once, twice.
‘If one can fall, more can fall. More have fallen. Half have fallen. It has been decreed that a company of Wolves be sent to the hearth-side of every one of the Emperor’s sons, to watch them.’
‘For what?’ asked Guilliman.
‘For signs of treachery, of heresy.’
‘And if such signs become visible?’
‘Then we are to act.’
‘Act?’ asked Guilliman. ‘You’re saying that you are here to watch me? To shadow me? And if you perceive my actions to be in any way untoward, what? You are authorised to enact sanction?’
‘By the Sigillite, so authorised.’
Guilliman laughed. ‘You would… cut my thread?’
‘If needs be. Primarchs are not invincible. Some already sleep upon the red snow.”

Excerpt From: Dan Abnett. “The Unremembered Empire.” iBooks.
I don't see how this is that ambiguous. Faffnr references the rumored duty for which his Legion is so notorious, and Guilliman knocks him down a peg. He's essentially saying, "You're not that special for doing what you claim; we all do what me must, according to our ability." At no point does he dispute the events that give Faffnr cause to consider his Legion legitimate executioners of Primarchs.

At best, I think it can be surmised that Faffnr was not part of the Sanctions against II and XI, and thus can't directly refute Guilliman's claims, but he was present at Prospero and uses it to back his argument. :)
 

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If like some said that Angron is equal to Russ and Lion beat Russ in a fair duel. Doesnt that make Lion the most powerful combatant among the primarchs? not counting chaos buffed Horus.
 

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If like some said that Angron is equal to Russ and Lion beat Russ in a fair duel. Doesnt that make Lion the most powerful combatant among the primarchs? not counting chaos buffed Horus.
Well Angron is potentially superior to Russ but more importantly the Lion only 'won' their duel because Russ stopped fighting making it basically impossible to get any useful information about their relative fighting skills.
 

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Actually, the Lion and Russ fought each other at least three times.

The first time was on Dulan, prior to the Heresy, and it was no duel at all. Russ was outraged that the Lion slew a tyrant that he himself had vowed to kill. Russ stormed into the Lion's tent and decked him. The two brawled for some time, until Russ began laughing. The Lion was less than amused, and knocked him out cold.

The second time is not dated, but it is perhaps the most proper "duel" between the two. All we know about it is that the Lion stabbed Russ through one of his hearts, and that the duel was declared a draw.

The third time is immediately after the Siege of Terra, when the Lion blames Russ for them arriving late. Russ is despondent and bares his chest, inviting the Lion to kill him. The Lion is so enraged that he stabs him, but at the last second he realizes what he's doing and pulls his blow. When Russ awakens, the Lion begs his forgiveness and the two become fast friends.
 

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If like some said that Angron is equal to Russ and Lion beat Russ in a fair duel. Doesnt that make Lion the most powerful combatant among the primarchs? not counting chaos buffed Horus.
Who's the strongest is up for debate Horus was scared of sanguinious, saying that if he turned he would have killed horus and took over the rebellion.

The only real info we have is that of the few primarchs that could defeat angron in combat were horus and sanguinious.

There's no info as to whose stronger or anything.

Guilliman would know. Guilliman would not suggest that their reputation was undeserved if he knew them to be responsible for the others.



What we know of the Wolves is that they absolutely will hold back, until told not to. What is it that Kharn says about them? That they should've called themselves dogs. That unlike the World Eaters (and the Night Lords) they can be restrained. If all it took to be the executioners or to take out a Primarch was to not hold back then either of those Legions would be better.



Several other Legions hold the mission as being of paramount importance. Including the Alpha Legion, who hesitate to kill Guilliman. That being the case I don't think its fair to say the none of the Space Wolves would hesitate.


Also I can't speak to the events you are referencing directly but I'll just point out that its a long way from injured or even 'near dead' to dead for a Primarch. How many Primarchs have we seen survive wounds that should've been mortal? How many have we seen pick themselves up from being moments from death to peak effectiveness in seconds. How many have seen kill their way through marines like they weren't even there?
The wolves can be restrained, if they are ordered to.

What I was trying to say that if they were ordered to kill a primarch they wouldn't stop. They wouldn't have gloated in gullimans face.

Gulliman did survive barely. The book makes it clear that he was in bad shape. The armour he was wearing for ceremonial armour it's protection was probably a little better than flakk armour.

A single wolf wouldn't kill a primarch, however a pack working as one would.
 

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What I was trying to say that if they were ordered to kill a primarch they wouldn't stop. They wouldn't have gloated in gullimans face.
None of the Legions would stop doing what they were ordered to do. Some might hesitate in doing it or be reluctant to do it, but I'd say that varies more on a personal level than a Legion one. Certainly we have seen Space Wolves hesitate and show reluctance in the commission of their orders. Until this novel I wouldn't have thought an Alpha Legionnaire would have gloated, indeed I would've said the Alpha Legion would be one of the least likely to gloat.

Gulliman did survive barely. The book makes it clear that he was in bad shape.
Guilliman also barely survived void exposure but was fine moments later. Night Haunter barely survived being stabbed twice but was fine moments later. The Lion was moments from death by brain smashing but was fine moments later. So on and so forth. Just because a Primarch has been heinously injured doesn't mean much.

A single wolf wouldn't kill a primarch, however a pack working as one would.
Why? You still haven't given any reason for that. Nothing they can do cannot be done by others. There is nothing about the Wolves that makes them inherently more dangerous than others.
 
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