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Rending - It seems to me like half 40k gamers oppose it while the other half are totally for it. I've read the description of Rending in the rulebook and I just can't figure out what all the commotion is about. I've only ever fielded a rending assault cannon twice to little effect.

Ok, so at the risk of being labeled a total fool, I'm going to ask a risky question:

Why all the fuss over rending?
 

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Because statistically, it's easier to crack a Land Raider open with a S6 rending weapon than a lascannon.

Look at it like this. With four shots from a BS4 assault cannon, you hit 2.64 times. You need a 6 to rend, so of three hits, you've got three dice to try to get a six. That six basically gets a glance on a 2+ since it's S6+6+D6 for the rending. To sum it up briefly, you have a 16% chance of getting a rending hit that penetrates the vehicle with one volley.

A lascannon at BS4 hits 66% of the time. Of that 66%, only a third of those shots will actually damage AV14. It comes out to something like 11.5% of lascannon shots that hit will penetrate AV14, as opposed to the assault cannon's 16% chance.

The problem here is that the assault cannon is supposed to be an anti-infantry weapon, not something that's better at opening up the best armor in the game than dedicated anti-tank weapons.
 

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I've killed an uninjured Wraithlord with a single Assault Cannon. No matter how rare, that should never happen.

The main problem is that Assault Cannons make a mockery of figuring how to balance anti-troop and anti-tank in an already simplistic game system. Taking lots of Assault Cannons have saved you having to worry.

Not only are they anti-tank, they're superior to a Lascannon or Missile at killing vehicles, albeit at a shorter range.
 

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The Son of Horus said:
The simple fix for that is to make assault cannons AP1 on a to-hit roll of 6. That'd stop them from chewing through heavy armour.
Yep that I would like. Perhaps in the Space Marine Redux - fingers crossed.
 

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I'm not convinced. As things stand Marines aren't excessively overpowered. If you compare the average marine finish at the GT to Eldar, Chaos or Even Dark Eldar you'll find they place way lower.

The assault cannon only becomes cheesy if you pack a list with them.
 

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Which of course, many do....
 

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on average marines place lower, but marines a used alot more than any other army. This means it makes sense for an army to be made, in order to deal with marines, as your likely to get 4 out of 6 games against them or similar.
 

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i've never seen assault cannons to be the be all end all of weapons. People still use lots of Lascannons, the place I see it is in Missle Launchers, because now you don't have to pick frag or krak, you just fire your assault cannon and let it decide :)

Overall, I think dropping it back down to 3 shots would probably fix most of the problems with it.
 

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Problem with the assault cannon?

You have a choice:

Take one heavy bolter for troops, one lascannon for tanks.

Take two assault cannon for both.

That's what it boils down to- a no-brainer.

A single Assault Cannon of course isn't going to win the game for you, cause the enemy army to spontaneously combust, etc.
But it is meant to be a terrifying anti-infantry weapon- like the Minigun in Predator (the Arnie film) but slightly bigger. Being Str 6 and 4 shot represents this, as does the AP 1 on a 6- it mows down troops.

But it should not crack open a Land Raider better than a dedicated anti-tank weapon like a lascannon.

I propose the Assault Cannon having the Divine Guidance ability- on a roll to wound of 6 it is AP 1.


I'm hesitant to make all Rending weapons like this- as Tyranids especially need them for cracking open tanks. Their only other anti-tank is a Venom Cannon that can only glance and a monstrous creature that needs to slowly walk into the tank before attacking it.
 

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I woulix rending by taking it out of shooting. Presto, problem solved.
 

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Every list has its cheese. Taking a few is fine, too many is being a twat, but everyone has them so you may as well use them.
 

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Every list has its cheese.
Ork cheese? (And Speed Freeks are a different army list).

Sisters cheese?

Grey Knights cheese?

I just find these grand statements are often wafted about right before someone admits they play Iron Warriors- :lol:
 

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Did it suddenly get cold in here? Brrr.... :lol:
 

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The Son of Horus said:
The problem here is that the assault cannon is supposed to be an anti-infantry weapon, not something that's better at opening up the best armor in the game than dedicated anti-tank weapons.
Are you sure about this? Based upon teh rules for it one would think it is a jack-of-all-trades weapon. It's anti infantry and anti armor. Looks like it was intentionally designed that way.
 

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Ork: Warbikes. Grots are surprisingly effective for the points cost.
SoB: Exorcist's general awesomeness, Immolators being able to move 12" and fire (and reroll wounds), four meltaguns in a mounted squad, two meltaguns(pistols) in a jump pack squad
GK: S6 force sword on the leader, true grit with stormbolters, the shrouding, Psycannons

In EITHER SoB or GK we have Callidus and Eversor assassins (insanely effective), "Metalstorm" inquisitors (cheap HB dev squad), being able to use two psychic hoods to block one power, in DH there's an item that lets you get first go, and in WH there;s one that lets you get choice of where to set up. you can ally the lists together and take both!

They may not all be super-mega powerful, but if used properly they can make people squeal about cheese

And, for the record, I don't play iron warriors.
And my Tau army only has one devilfish, and it's for pathfinders who don't even use it.

And my marines only boast three LSTs and no AC terminators. I tend to favor scouts for my troops (usually take at least four troops choices, at least half are scouts.)
 

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pathwinder14 said:
The Son of Horus said:
The problem here is that the assault cannon is supposed to be an anti-infantry weapon, not something that's better at opening up the best armor in the game than dedicated anti-tank weapons.
Are you sure about this? Based upon teh rules for it one would think it is a jack-of-all-trades weapon. It's anti infantry and anti armor. Looks like it was intentionally designed that way.
Jack-of-all-trades yes, but it's anti-tank ability is too good. This they could fix by making it AP1 on 6s and losing the rend. With Tank Hunters they could still penetrate a Predator, but be unable to hurt a Land Raider - for that they need things better suited to the job, like missiles and lascannons.
 

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It only has a two foot range. It is handicapped enough. You gotta get the thing into range before it can be used.
 

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yeah...

It's not like every unit that can carry one is either extremely fast, able to deepstrike or equipped with a fuckton of armor ;-)

I like ACs, and used in moderation, I see no shame in taking them (hell, my cityfight list has five, two of which are twinlinked), but I will say they are a bit too good against tanks...or at least have the potential to be. I went three straight gaes where my Baal predator got its ass smoked before it could pop a single tank, and it usually got to fire before it got toasted.
 

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Galahad said:
yeah...

It's not like every unit that can carry one is either extremely fast, able to deepstrike or equipped with a fuckton of armor ;-)
Let's see....

Land Speeder totnado - Easily shot down by massed bolter rounds and anything stronger. It's got no surviveability. When I take them mine usually go down inside of two turns. People don't let them last long.

Dreadnoughts have a relatively weak armor compared to a lot of other tank types out there.

Terminators once they deep strike they will probably only get to use that AC once before they are assaulted or shot to peices.

AC's are good, but they have short range and any decent player will make anything carrying one a priority.
 
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