[AzraelJahannam]

That was what I was thinking Orichi, I mean, sure, they may be smaller, but damn, their technology makes a Titan seem obsolete, which is why I wonder, would the brute strength of the Titan be able to win out over the superior technology, maneuverability, and pilot cohesion of the AC/Next.

They certainly are the next step after the Titan, after all, they are little more than walking weapons platforms.

Oh, and at Ironhammer, the Reever isn't so big that it could step on an AC/Next.

PS, I just watched the opening, so badass. And it reminds me, the Nexts use an energy field as well, the Kojim (spelling?) Particle field if I'm not mistaken, which gives it a good deal of protection, adding onto its defense properties. Hmmm... maybe things aren't as grim for the AC after all... It's also mentionable that the Nexts have rather advanced plasma and laser weapons at their disposal... Perhaps this fight isn't quite so one-sided... And if it can penetrate that void shield... I see it being game over for the Reever, because that superior maneuverability in comparison to the ponderous motions of the Titan could be the Reevers death sentence.

 

[Iron Angel]

The only weapon a Next could possibly use that would elicit more than a hearty laugh from a Titan is Kojima cannons, which will end up leaving the next completely without its energy fields, and the weapons have to charge. Nice big energy source to lock on to, and boom, a million missiles streak through the air and leave the entire battlefield (And the NEXT) a giant crater. Teh end. And that Next better hope it can get behind it, a direct hit from basically any weapon on a Titan will pretty much spell the Next's death.

 

[solkan]

Great thread! I love seeing everyone get so fired up!

It sounds to me like putting a doberman up against a chihuahua.

I'd back the reaver, assuming the fight doesn't start with the AC under the friggin titan, the closing of distance (with a priceps in the fluid womb) would be the end of it. Also, according to the fluff I've read, you can't pass through void shields so at best an AC could land on the titans void shields; slide off and be on the ground again unable to damage the behemoth.

The fluff which you read has to be incorrect, because there are numerous examples in both the old Epic: Space Marine game and in the Apocolypse rules where void shields don't prevent units from moving through them, and most of the examples of moving through void fields are to attack a titan in close combat.

Edit: As demonstration, the Terminator Titanhammer datasheet in which the fluff paragraph describes a unit of terminators teleporting within the void shields of a renegade titan and then charging other nearby titans.

 

[Epic Fail]

there's a passage in Titanicus (novel) where sand was blowing against the voids and making a loud shearing noise, that's the entirety of my fluff research.

I'm sure there's just as many passages in there that contradict this too.

 

[Iron Angel]

I think Void Shields selectively recognize projectiles and small objects, but not large ones. Since some missiles and artillery are larger than infantry though, I guess its just slective about ANYTHING that tries to go through it, which would mean AC landing is still a no-go.

 

[Wraithian]

I'm not buying the, "Nexts can't carry anything big enough to hurt a titan," arguement. Lascannons? Man-portable in the 40K universe, and the AC universe has it's equivilant. CC weapons? AC: For Answer has a laserblade that can one shot other ACs (lighter Nexts, but a one shot kill can be achieved). It is quite possible to peg rear armor shots with an autocannon and score pens, not to mention that autocannons (in my opinion) are one of the best ways to drop void shields, and those also are man portable in the 40K universe, and there are equivilants (I'd dare to even say heavier) in the AC universe.

The major disadvantage that the AC has is range. The range of an AC's weapons isn't nearly that of the reaver (going by fluff here, not table top).

So, my answer to the, "who would win?" question is this: It's situational. If the AC can fight the reaver in a confined area with lots of LOS blocking terrain, I'd say the reaver's going to have a very bad day.

If the reaver can engage the AC in a more open environment, especially at range, then the AC explodes after a hit or two.

 

[Stella Cadente]

I think your confusing game with fluff wraithian, in fluff terms lascannons and autocannons would do bugger all to a Titan (unless your a certain ultramarine devvie squad in the new codex who took down a warlord, but thats GW's hard on for marines), game terms sure they might manage it, but this is fluff were talking about, not game.

 

[BloodAngelsfan]

I have only one thing to say on this matter; I hate vs. threads.

 

[Wraithian]

I think your confusing game with fluff wraithian, in fluff terms lascannons and autocannons would do bugger all to a Titan (unless your a certain ultramarine devvie squad in the new codex who took down a warlord, but thats GW's hard on for marines), game terms sure they might manage it, but this is fluff were talking about, not game.

That's part of the problem--consistency. If you go with one author of one codex/2nd ed codeci/black library (regardless of it's "canon" qualifications), you can come up with either conclusion. It comes with the territory of trying to bash two seperate universes together who have absolutely zero in common (40K fluff is pretty vague and the game mechanics are pretty abstract, while AC uses, "real world," physics in it's mechanics, and relies on that to build the game where the fluff fails [which is frequently--not the most fulfilling story line in the AC games], let alone one is a D6 based game, whilst the other is a video game with no table top analog).

I have only one thing to say on this matter; I hate vs. threads.

I'm glad you could go out of your way for such a productive statement. If you don't like it, don't read it. Either way, trolling is frowned on. :wink:

 

[Talos]

I have played all the AC games and I must have missed something, the next always seemed really small like double the size of a dread.
In AC 4 in the map with buildings the nexts is up to the 3rd floor, I am sure a titan is larger than that.
If the Imperium is able to deal with the fast Eldar titans I am sure they will be able to beat a next.
I see Next as just a bigger version of the Tau Battlesuits.
After looking up the stats of the Next weapons in the game they just look upscaled version of modern day weapons.

 

[Iron Angel]

THe one problem with the "Ac can get behind Titan" argument is that the titan's missiles track. Meaning, either you can A: Stay behind the Titan, get hit by missiles, and die, or B: Get out from behind the titan, get hit by missiles, and die.

 

[AzraelJahannam]

First of all, I am happily surprised by the amount of discussion taking place regarding this unlikely match up.

Secondly, We have to do what we can with what is provided for us, essentially a cross-reference of 40K fluff and tabletop representation with Armored Core in-game demonstrations of scale and weapons schematics. It is no doubt difficult given that neither systems engage anything like what the other has to offer (debatable as in Armored Core series one does face off against a number of larger, more cumbersome heavily armed opponents) but again, we must make do with what we have.

I think Void Shields selectively recognize projectiles and small objects, but not large ones. Since some missiles and artillery are larger than infantry though, I guess its just slective about ANYTHING that tries to go through it, which would mean AC landing is still a no-go.

If the void shield was selective to the point that it would prevent for example, a NEXT to pass through, then terminators wouldn't have been able to pass through it, and, now that I think about it, the Gargant in "Crusade for Armageddon" wouldn't have been able to just punch the Warlord Titan in the face without resistance.

I'm not buying the, "Nexts can't carry anything big enough to hurt a titan," arguement. Lascannons? Man-portable in the 40K universe, and the AC universe has it's equivilant. CC weapons? AC: For Answer has a laserblade that can one shot other ACs (lighter Nexts, but a one shot kill can be achieved). It is quite possible to peg rear armor shots with an autocannon and score pens, not to mention that autocannons (in my opinion) are one of the best ways to drop void shields, and those also are man portable in the 40K universe, and there are equivilants (I'd dare to even say heavier) in the AC universe.

The major disadvantage that the AC has is range. The range of an AC's weapons isn't nearly that of the reaver (going by fluff here, not table top).

So, my answer to the, "who would win?" question is this: It's situational. If the AC can fight the reaver in a confined area with lots of LOS blocking terrain, I'd say the reaver's going to have a very bad day.

If the reaver can engage the AC in a more open environment, especially at range, then the AC explodes after a hit or two.

I have to say I agree, the ACs/Nexts carry weapons of greater magnitude than lascannons and certainly more so than autocannons (Also notable that many of the machine guns carried by NEXTS which are of greater magnitude than autocannons also have a much higher RoF), both of which are capable of damaging Titans, and the laser blade is most certainly powerful enough to penetrate its armor if you compare to the one hit damage it inflicts on everything (perhaps even hamstring the Titan?.. Something tells me Titans can't crawl...)
But most definitely, if they started far away from one another, or the NEXT didn't get the jump on the Titan (death from the skies?) then I see the NEXT being turned into scrap metal.

I think your confusing game with fluff wraithian, in fluff terms lascannons and autocannons would do bugger all to a Titan (unless your a certain ultramarine devvie squad in the new codex who took down a warlord, but thats GW's hard on for marines), game terms sure they might manage it, but this is fluff were talking about, not game.

By this statement you are suggesting that tabletop representations of stats are irrelevant? And fluff that I've read "Crusade for Armageddon" for example, seems to suggest otherwise.

I have only one thing to say on this matter; I hate vs. threads.

-Ignores-

That's part of the problem--consistency. If you go with one author of one codex/2nd ed codeci/black library (regardless of it's "canon" qualifications), you can come up with either conclusion. It comes with the territory of trying to bash two seperate universes together who have absolutely zero in common (40K fluff is pretty vague and the game mechanics are pretty abstract, while AC uses, "real world," physics in it's mechanics, and relies on that to build the game where the fluff fails [which is frequently--not the most fulfilling story line in the AC games], let alone one is a D6 based game, whilst the other is a video game with no table top analog).

Quite true, hopefully we can surmount this barrier and come to some general agreement.

I have played all the AC games and I must have missed something, the next always seemed really small like double the size of a dread.
In AC 4 in the map with buildings the nexts is up to the 3rd floor, I am sure a titan is larger than that.
If the Imperium is able to deal with the fast Eldar titans I am sure they will be able to beat a next.
I see Next as just a bigger version of the Tau Battlesuits.
After looking up the stats of the Next weapons in the game they just look upscaled version of modern day weapons.

Well given that in-game it's quite common for an AC/NEXT to accidentally step on a car or tank, it would suggest that they are much bigger than a dreadnought. In addition, I don't believe 'modern day' weapons include plasma cannons and advanced wide aperture laser weaponry, and the same degree of missile technology demonstrated in the game, but that's just me, maybe I'm missing something.

THe one problem with the "Ac can get behind Titan" argument is that the titan's missiles track. Meaning, either you can A: Stay behind the Titan, get hit by missiles, and die, or B: Get out from behind the titan, get hit by missiles, and die.

I would tend to agree with this, except that well, the carapace mounted missile track has a large minimum range, all the NEXT has to do is stay close to the Titan's back, and the missile track is useless, unless the Titan wants to blow off it's own back before it can get to the AC...

 

[Tau22]

Well... the ACs in "Armored Core: For Answer" (I think that's the latest) do take on some MASSIVE machines on their own and destroy them... so... yeah.

 

[Stella Cadente]

By this statement you are suggesting that tabletop representations of stats are irrelevant? And fluff that I've read "Crusade for Armageddon" for example, seems to suggest otherwise.

thats exactly what I'm saying and I'd also say anything you read in any book should be ignored, unless its an Imperial armour book, that actually gives proper fluff for the vehicle, whereas something like "crusade for Armageddon" is fictional fiction, its written to be a story and entertain, not to be an actual representation of anything in the 40k universe, which is what GW and BL have already told you.

 

[AzraelJahannam]

thats exactly what I'm saying and I'd also say anything you read in any book should be ignored, unless its an Imperial armour book, that actually gives proper fluff for the vehicle, whereas something like "crusade for Armageddon" is fictional fiction, its written to be a story and entertain, not to be an actual representation of anything in the 40k universe, which is what GW and BL have already told you.

In such a case we have very little to go off of as we are restricted then to ONLY Imperial Armor, as we only have books to go off of, and Imperial Armor is the only series of books that is apparently valid according to your statement, and if that isn't limited enough, we have to ignore the tabletop representative stats that Imperial Armor offers, which are one of the prime methods of comparing the strengths and weaknesses of the mechanical behemoths they deal with. Not to mention (after reading through the sixth book) nothing in there answers the void shield question, nor does it disqualify the lethality of lascannons etc, and it does not give us an approximate turning speed of a Reever Titan. If we are to achieve any degree of detail in our analysis we cannot narrow our source material so much. I see no alternative but to look elsewhere than only the fluff section of the Imperial Armor books.

However, any information that might aid our analysis in this versus thread that you can discern and divulge from Imperial Armor would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your input.

 

[solkan]

The four legged CR-C75U2 Delta AC model which is sitting in my room is about 6" tall, and since the model claims to be 1/72 scale, that puts it at about 36 feet tall. Taking size information from a random site, a Warhound is about 70 feet, a Reaver is about 130 feet, and a Warlord is about 180 to 200 feet tall.

I think that the safe thing to say is that an AC wouldn't take anything bigger than a Warhound on head on, but I could see someone writing up the mission for an AC to take out a Reaver with just a few dramatic coincidences and a whole lot of cover.

 

[waltzmelancholy_07]

Although I like "vs threads"... This is just downright laughable... An AC destroying a titan?...

The Imperium is already in the 40,000th millennium for heaven's sake whereas the AC or even the Next's technology is in what century?...

I have never read the books of GW or BL but I have done my research... Titans can level a city and still do so again without the concerns of recharging...

AC's though remarkable tend to recharge their battery packs before, during and after a battle... I played the earlier versions...

My point? Sure run around... Dodge the projectiles... But when the boosters complain, the AC's done for...

Cover?... What cover?... The Titan can just destroy it along with the AC, unless the cover was made up of adamantium; that is if the AC can still use its boosters to escape...

Next time make a "vs thread" that's not utterly ridiculous...

 

[Hyderm]

I know, I know... its dead Jim...

I have a bad habit of finding dead forums that hold things that I would like to talk about, so here I go...

Reaver Titan: 85ft

AC Next: (model is 1/72, 20cm high=.20m *72=14.4m *3.28 (meters to feet)= 47ft; a little more than 1/2 Reaver Titan

weapon mounts on Reaver Titan are front facing, due to their use in fortress breaking and support assaulting.(the arms can move, obviously but more than likely cant face backward, and there is no reason the missile mount needs to move so why would they design it like that?)

In the AC 4 you fight land fortresses (probably would make a emperor wet its pants) as they truly dwarf a entire city and contain a massive number of weapon hard points.

Continuing from that the Reaver contains weapon hard points as well (arms, and top back) with this all the AC pilot has to do is speed behind and were down the shield, once that happens the arms and mount that the missiles are on are the primary targets. When they are taken out the Reaver looses all combat abilities, and all the AC has to do is slice the control(head) thing in half to "kill" it.

So even though the weapons, size, and defenses of the Reaver are higher that the AC, it means nothing in truth, as the AC can fire at points that are unarmored and remove all combat ability from the Reaver quite easily with a little work. And with enough skill I'm confident that a AC could even take out a Emperor with enough time(as they take out similar fortresses with legs in the games that have ACs in them)

For the record I'm talking about the Nexts from AC 4; which dont loose energy when flying, have REAL shields and are allot harder to track as the boost from here to there in the blink of an eye(kinda hard to track something like that for more than a few nanoseconds, when you turn at less than 1/10 the speed)

 

[deathwatch_v]

I think it comes down to void shields. I mean if they are impenetrable by foreign objects, then what is the purpose of a Titan Close Combat weapon.

Surely if you can only use a close combat weapon when the void shields are down it would be easier to put a missile thought the opponents bridge rather than charge at it and grapple with the other guy for 5 minutes. And also that would have to mean that Titans with close combat weapons would have to shut off there void shields to be able to touch the other titan...otherwise they'd just bounce off each other and that would leave them vulnerable when they could just shoot the other Titan.

This leads to the thought of selective void shields. I dunno about this one, you'd use a lot of computer/servitor/crew resources just sorting through whether or not something was a bird or a krak missile.

In my opinion void shields act on the energy of the incoming object. If the titan is walking through a city and there is a building in the way the void shield lets it through coz it has no energy. On the other hand a missile streaking towards the titan has high kinetic energy so the void shield blocks it. Same with a beam weapon only the void shield rejects the high electrical energy.

If that is true then i think it is possible for an AC to get through the void shields of a titan and cut of the bridge or put a beam sabre through the reactor...although you would think the Imperial titans have a defense for just such an event. Otherwise things like crisis battle suits would be all over the "god Titans".