[Winterous]

I'M NOT SAYING THIS RULING IS RAW, IT'S JUST A FAIR, SIMPLE RULING WHICH WORKS FAR BETTER THAN ANYTHING THAT CAN BE CONSTRUED AS RAW.

The only question that I would ask if I were playing an Ork player would be " What speed did you move, combat speed or cruising speed?" That is all I would need to know.

This seems to me to be the fairest, and simplest, way to play the rule.
You get a 'bonus' 1" move; if you choose to ignore it, you move as normal, if you choose to use it, you move an extra 1", but discount the extra move from your total distance moved.
So if you move 7", you can choose to either count as moving at Cruising or Combat, depending on what you decide.

Thanks Talthewicked


*original post begins here*

Red Paint Job is a glorious upgrade, however, it seems some people disagree with me on how it works, RAW.

Ork vehicles with Red Paint Job add +1 to their move in the Movement phase but do not incur penalties for this extra inch. For example, a vehicle could move 13" and still count as moving 12".

That's the wording of the rule.

RAW, not necessarily RAI, that means you can move 1" extra distance, and ignore all penalties for doing so, as it says in the rule.
That means you can move 7", be hit on 6+ in melee the next turn, and fire 1 primary and all secondary weapons, as though you had moved 1" less.


Some people disagree with me on this, proposing that you simply can move 1" extra, but discount that extra movement for all purposes.
This is wrong, since if you can only move 7" maximum, that means you CANNOT get the 6+ to hit in melee benefit; this in itself is a penalty, and in the wording of the rule, it says you do not incur any penalties for the extra movement bonus; a direct contradiction of the wording of the rule, regardless of whether that is the intended function.

So there are only two sensible conclusions to draw.
1. What I stated above, 1" extra movement, ignoring all penalties, as the rule actually says you do.
2. You can move 1" extra, and that counts for all purposes (allowing non-fast vehicles to move Flat Out), which doesn't follow the wording of the rules at all, but doesn't directly contradict it like my opposition's proposal.


Discuss, please.

 

[KingOfCheese]

*facepalm*
Did we really need ANOTHER thread to discuss the same argument all over again?

You move the vehicle whatever distance you want to move. The vehicle is treated as having moved at this speed. Then, give the vehicle a little nudge 1" forward.

Seriously, it counts as moving at either combat speed or cruising speed. You cant just pick the best of both.
Seriously, its 5 points, and its PAINT. Its not supposed to be "OMFGWTFBBQ UBER CHEESY SHOOTY MOVEMENT THINGY UPGRADE".

 

[fynn]

tbh the way i read it is that with a RPJ, a truck for example can move 7" (instead of 6") and still count as moveing at combat speed, so as its classed as moveing at combat speed,but you dont get the the 6+ for CC as its still moveing at combat speed, and not fast/flatout speed, but you can still fire a primery and all secondary weapons.

 

[Winterous]

*facepalm*
Did we really need ANOTHER thread to discuss the same argument all over again?

No, we needed another topic to stop derailing the other thread obscenely.

@Fynn, however, for reasons I discussed above, that directly contradicts the wording of the rule.
You're suffering a penalty (in not being hit on a 6+ instead of 4+) because you have this upgrade, and the upgrade specifically says you do not incur any penalties for the bonus movement.

 

[Aramoro]

Not receiving a bonus is NOT the same as getting a penalty.

Aramoro

 

[Winterous]

Not receiving a bonus is NOT the same as getting a penalty.

Aramoro

You aren't 'not getting a bonus'.
If you didn't have RPJ, you would get the hard-to-hit effect, so you're being penalised for having it.

 

[OIIIIIIO]

I think what they meant by "ignore all penalties" was that it is cut and dried. If you move 7" you are moving cruising speed. Orky stuff with RPJ allows you to move 7" and still be considered combat speed. same with the 12" and 13" measurement. What gets me though is on the 13" measurement it would have moved flat-out, and since you need 6's to hit anything that moved cruising speed, what would you need to hit an ork vehicle that moved at said speed of 13"? Does it get a 4+ cover save at that point? All other things that move flat-out indeed gain a 4+ cover save. I would say that they intended for the Orks to get a little bit more movement because they are in fact little green guys that THINK they can go faster.

 

[KingOfCheese]

This is going to be the same as the other thread.

90% of people are going to say it just adds 1" movement without counting as moving the extra inch, while you are going to try and push them to believe you can cheese the rules.

There is no point to the thread when the rule wording is slightly vague, and nobody is going to change their beliefs on the rule. Im sure that people have better things to do with their lives than argue about an inconclusive rule regarding wardollies.

Just play the game in a fair way that both players can enjoy, rather than trying to exploit dodgy rules in your favor.

Seriously.
/end thread.

 

[Winterous]

I think what they meant by "ignore all penalties" was that it is cut and dried. If you move 7" you are moving cruising speed. Orky stuff with RPJ allows you to move 7" and still be considered combat speed. same with the 12" and 13" measurement. What gets me though is on the 13" measurement it would have moved flat-out, and since you need 6's to hit anything that moved cruising speed, what would you need to hit an ork vehicle that moved at said speed of 13"? Does it get a 4+ cover save at that point? All other things that move flat-out indeed gain a 4+ cover save. I would say that they intended for the Orks to get a little bit more movement because they are in fact little green guys that THINK they can go faster.

To be honest I don't really understand what your conclusion is, could you rephrase your post please?


@KingOfCheese, playing the rules in a way that is fair to both players is NOT what you're suggesting, you're suggesting a flawed conclusion which directly contradicts the wording of the rule in question, and also gives an unfair situation to the Ork player, where they can get a vulnerability for no reason.

*edit*
"There is no point to the thread when the rule wording is slightly vague,"
That's the whole fucking point of the thread.

 

[OIIIIIIO]

If you move 7" you have moved cruising speed. cut and dried, tried and true. The penalties being that you can fire 0 weapons, etc. RPJ makes an ork 7" movement to be combat speed, you can fire weapons, etc. This is the negative effect that is being ignored. The only question that I would ask if I were playing an Ork player would be " What speed did you move, combat speed or cruising speed?" That is all I would need to know.

 

[KingOfCheese]

@KingOfCheese, playing the rules in a way that is fair to both players is NOT what you're suggesting, you're suggesting a flawed conclusion which directly contradicts the wording of the rule in question, and also gives an unfair situation to the Ork player, where they can get a vulnerability for no reason.

I AM the Ork player at my local club, and im a cheesy bastard, but even i wouldnt try to claim the benefits of both combat and cruising speeds.

Aramoro and I arent going to change our opinions, your not going to change yours, nobody else is going to change theirs, now please for the love of god can we drop this pointless argument already? :headbutt:


For anyone else that hasnt seen the other thread with the argument in it, have a look...
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=71088

 

[Winterous]

If you move 7" you have moved cruising speed. cut and dried, tried and true. The penalties being that you can fire 0 weapons, etc. RPJ makes an ork 7" movement to be combat speed, you can fire weapons, etc. This is the negative effect that is being ignored. The only question that I would ask if I were playing an Ork player would be " What speed did you move, combat speed or cruising speed?" That is all I would need to know.

That is a viable solution, yes.
I suppose you could think of it as a Star-Engines-esque bonus move.
You can move normally, and go "Hey look at me, my RPJ isn't doing anything "
And then you have the option to add 1" to your movement, and count as not having moved that extra 1".
Hmm, I think this may be the best interpretation to use...
*adds to OP*

I AM the Ork player at my local club, and im a cheesy bastard, but even i wouldnt try to claim the benefits of both combat and cruising speeds.

Aramoro and I arent going to change our opinions, your not going to change yours, nobody else is going to change theirs, now please for the love of god can we drop this pointless argument already? :headbutt:


For anyone else that hasnt seen the other thread with the argument in it, have a look...
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=71088

Or you could shut up, go away, and let me have a civil discussion about a game that I enjoy, and a set of rules I like being precise about.

 

[OpTi]

Ork vehicles with Red Paint Job add +1 to their move in the Movement phase but do not incur penalties for this extra inch. For example, a vehicle could move 13" and still count as moving 12".

end of discussion imo, no matter what distance you HAVE moved, you count as moving 1" less.

 

[Winterous]

end of discussion imo, no matter what distance you HAVE moved, you count as moving 1" less.

Read my addition to the OP :>

 

[KingOfCheese]

You can move normally, and go "Hey look at me, my RPJ isn't doing anything "
And then you have the option to add 1" to your movement, and count as not having moved that extra 1".
Hmm, I think this may be the best interpretation to use...
*adds to OP*

Which is what i have been saying from the beginning.

You move the vehicle whatever distance you want to move. The vehicle is treated as having moved at this speed. Then, give the vehicle a little nudge 1" forward.

So you were passionate about your beliefs and spoke to Aramoro and I using fowl language insisting you were right, and then in the end you agree with us....

I dont appreciate this kind of abuse.
What makes it worse is that in the end you agreed with me.
Can I have an apology?

 

[Aramoro]

Red Paint Job is not optional, you always use it, read your codex.

You are still wrong Winterous no matter how you try to twist it.

Aramoro

 

[Winterous]

Which is what i have been saying from the beginning.

Quote me where you once said that it's optional and not enforced, and I'll apologise for arguing when I'd simply missed something you said.
I certainly don't remember you guys ever saying that, and I highly doubt either of you did, while you were both fixated on being condescending and rude towards me because you think I'm retarded.
*edit*
Actually in hindsight, Aramoro was the one being rude, you weren't anywhere near as bad Cheese, although you were still being kinda condescending.

So you were passionate about your beliefs and spoke to Aramoro and I using fowl language insisting you were right, and then in the end you agree with us....

It's not 'fowl language', it's emphasis, swearing is perfectly fine, and if you don't like swearing, then get the hell off the internet because you're going to be offended by half the things you bloody well see.

Can we have an apology?

No you cannot have an apology, because I WAS right about the RAW, I was arguing ONLY for RAW; you two were being extremely rude to me for no reason, not once did I attack either of you except in retaliation, and it's not my fault if you interpret the presence of a swear word as aggressive behaviour; you have to keep an open mind about communication when you're talking to people from other cultures, in Australia, swearing is second fucking nature.

*edit*

Red Paint Job is not optional, you always use it, read your codex.

You are still wrong Winterous no matter how you try to twist it.

Aramoro

And once again Aramoro, you're completely ignoring what I'm saying.
I'm not saying that a 'toggle' switch is a CORRECT ruling, I'm saying it's a reasonable, fair, and simple-as-hell ruling to make over a rule which can clearly be interpreted in multiple ways.

 

[lokis222]

So you were passionate about your beliefs and spoke to Aramoro and I using fowl language insisting you were right, and then in the end you agree with us....

Can we have an apology?

You guys may or may not have been right in the other thread, but Aramoro and yourself were pretty condescending. Not saying Winterous was right in the language, but I would have gotten pretty annoyed.

Personally, I agree.

Ork rule book is that you ignore penalties when having moved that extra inch.
Main rulebook is that to get those to hit bonus, you take into mind the speed category at which the vehicle had moved.

So, if you move six inches or count as moving six inches, you have moved at combat speed and can be hit in CC at a 4+.

It is pretty easy to read into that rule, and mocking someone who does is pretty poor sportsmanship.

 

[The Boz]

I still don't see the "I don't get the benefits on Cruising Speed with Combat Speed, I'm being penalized!" thing...

 

[Winterous]

I still don't see the "I don't get the benefits on Cruising Speed with Combat Speed, I'm being penalized!" thing...

Well it's a little bit confusing, I've defined the penalty here as not being hit on a 6+, but rather a 4+; since you're actually moving 7+, but counting as moving 6+.

Simplest and fairest solution is at the end of the OP, I'll move it to the top.