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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
one of the odder things about 7th edition is that the loyalist army's, Space marine, Imperial guard ectra, all have access to the Sanctic Daemonology and so summon demons.

First thought was "What the heck? space marines summoning demons? ok must represent chapters that have fallen in all but name" but on reflection something occurred to me.

Sanctic seems to be reduced form of the Latin word sanctifico , meaning sanctioned (according to google translate) and this is, as we all know, the time of ending, and the Imperium is losing, could this now be a indicator of just how bad the situation is? that it is now acceptable for loyalist chapters to summon demons if it will guarantee another day for a dying imperium?

what are your thoughts on this new angle on the dying Imperium?

EDIT: bleep got my wires crossed, Santic is the one that fights demons, not summons them, aside from that goof up, hows the rest hold up?
 

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Malefic summons daemons and, altough dangerous, it is accessible to non daemonic casters alike.
Why imperials should summon daemons? Fluffwise, many an inquisitor (radical) would do that. Fight fire with fire. And if you play IG and have that Primaris cast Summoning, maybe is because he is so desperate, short on troops and in need of victory that he gambles his soul for a warp spawned help.
Librarians tough...mmmh...i'd never forgive my opponent if his librarian or epistolary starts summoning daemons. That is wrong...but never forget that a chapter can become prey of chaos temptations way before really turning against the imperium. Maybe that SM sorceror will be executed for his action after the battle, maybe he will be praised for having turned the tide (and that chapter is doomed!)
Grey knights summoning daemons (even if with allies): shame on the player that does that!!!
Xenos summoning daemons, for me is fine. Eldar are a bunch of emo-goth-narcissistic cunts, so everithing is ok, from anal pobing down to daemon summoning.
Orks are a powerful warp catalyzer (even Shon'tu uses their raw psy manifestation to fuel daemonic autodefenses on his flagship), so gogo khorne daemons charging with orks!
We just have to stretch the fluff a little and to admit that times are grim, for the imperium.
 

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Keep in mind that sometimes daemons just like to rock up for shits and giggles.

Fluffwise, you could simply say a group of daemons have exploited a weakness in the owning army's psyker and are seeking to exploit him and his allies. For the time being, they would need him alive.

You could also throw in such plot devices as curses, hexes or say that the psyker is slowly being driven to madness and hears voices. Once he reaches critical, those voices become much more real.
 

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In games terms it's really fun but in fluff term I don't like it. Both Eldar and the Imperium are completly against daemon summoning and would rather die then summon daemons to help. For example Eldar are completly against Slannnesh and aren't mad into the other god either, so the fact that they can summon daemons is completly against all fluff. For Imperial forces it's not too hard to argue as others have mentioned different reasons for daemon summoning. But game terms I'm grabbing as many warp charge dice as I can and summoning daemons.
 

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Just use different models, paint them differently, and hey presto.

For example Eldar planting hallucinations in the mind of the enemy so real, they actually die when struck by them in combat (Bloodletters). Paint up some Harlies to look like ghosts.

Pre-Heresy Loyalist Thousand Sons with tutelaries.

Imperial Guard guided by the Beati, returned from the dead - Slaanesh Herald.

And so on. There are loads of cool model and conversion/painting options out there apart from "Suddenly Eldar are cool with summoning Keepers of Secrets".
 

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Personally I refuse to rationalize this one. It's easy enough to say that the warp found a flaw in a psyke'rs mind and exploited him, or that in a moment of desperation someone gave in, but this is unacceptable fluffwise and should never have been allowed. Yes, yes even the greatest of Astartes have fallen and some Inquisitors are known to traffic in daemonology but these are rarities and are considered abominations by their loyalists peers. Furthermore, any Space Marine who summoned daemons would be very harshly dealt with. Also, this reeks of just another money grab by GW and they shouldn't be done the favor of us fans explaining this one away.
 

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Also, this reeks of just another money grab by GW and they shouldn't be done the favor of us fans explaining this one away.
just like any new unit implemented in codexes (centurions, crones, maulerfiends etc..)
Everithing is a moneygrab. so... :wink:
i feel that not so many daemons will be sold due to this daemon summoning thing. used twice, never resolutive. funny, but not so terrbile to get headaches. also, i'll pun to death any SM who summons daemons in my face. but the fluff is so large that we can explain this in many ways without feeling dirty (but i always feel dirty, i like slaanesh and nurgle...two daemons one cup)
 

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Also, this reeks of just another money grab by GW and they shouldn't be done the favor of us fans explaining this one away.
Heaven forbid a business would want to make money.


And this isn't a moneygrab anyway. A moneygrab is when something is mandatory to the game itself, like buying new rulebooks and codexes every few years.

This is an optional extra that a lot of players won't even bother making use of. As a tyranid and necron player, I certainly don't care and neither do any of the gamers in my circle but for one csm player for that matter.


Fluff is malleable. If someone wants to alter a few models to be ghosts of imperial heroes, or shards of the Avatar of Khaine, then these rules give the option for this to be represented on the tabletop. That's really all we need be concerned with.
 

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I was full of nerd rage when this came out first, but the more I thought about the hobby side of it, the more I began to think of using ghostly wolves for blood letters, just to add something new to the painting queue of my SWs.

Yes the fluff of loyalists in general summoning demons is simply ridiculous, but when has that really mattered on the table top? For now it's a bit of fun, and by all accounts so far it's a pretty risky gambit for your 100+ pts librarian. I do hope this will be redressed in any forthcoming codexes that will give back specific powers to armies. To that end I await with interest whatever the next codex is going to be just to see if that happens.
 

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Heaven forbid a business would want to make money.


And this isn't a moneygrab anyway. A moneygrab is when something is mandatory to the game itself, like buying new rulebooks and codexes every few years.

This is an optional extra that a lot of players won't even bother making use of. As a tyranid and necron player, I certainly don't care and neither do any of the gamers in my circle but for one csm player for that matter.


Fluff is malleable. If someone wants to alter a few models to be ghosts of imperial heroes, or shards of the Avatar of Khaine, then these rules give the option for this to be represented on the tabletop. That's really all we need be concerned with.
To me a money grab is anything a business does that is solely in an effort to increase profits at the expense of quality, service, tradition etc.. I've worked for companies who have used these tactics, and I don't really consider anything GW puts out mandatory as I can always play older editions, like I've done before. As to fluff being malleable...that it true to some extent. All storylines will develop over time but to drastically alter one of the most basic concepts and break down the barriers between loyalists and the daemons of the warp goes beyond that. I've been playing GW products for 25 years so I've seen plenty of fluff changes, but this one goes a bit too far. I don't begrudge any business making money, if they weren't profitable they wouldn't exist but there are good ways and bad ways to go about it. This is the latter. There are many who like the extreme open atmosphere of the new edition. To each their own. I simply do not because it doesn't feel like the same setting anymore. With that said, I will be playing 7th but with a few restrictions. My friends and I won't be using unbound forces and daemonology won't be in heavy use (especially not for loyalists).
 

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With that said, I will be playing 7th but with a few restrictions. My friends and I won't be using unbound forces and daemonology won't be in heavy use (especially not for loyalists).
Then what's the problem? You know how you want to play, all these changes do is allow more options for those who will use them.

There's no reason to be against this, unless you're the type who insists on only seeing the negative rather than the wider potential. But as you just said, you know what you want from this edition so why bother with the rest of it at all?
 

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Then what's the problem? You know how you want to play, all these changes do is allow more options for those who will use them.

There's no reason to be against this, unless you're the type who insists on only seeing the negative rather than the wider potential. But as you just said, you know what you want from this edition so why bother with the rest of it at all?
Let me clarify...I don't like the fluff alteration. That is the entirety of the problem. Please don't color me as just being negative person for not enjoying the changes. The only reason I've stuck with 40K over the years is because I like the setting. Rules are secondary to that in my opinion, so dramatic changes to the fluff that I don't care for do bother me. You may like them, and as I said to each their own. The way you or anyone outside my group chooses to play doesn't bother me, but since we were discussing fluff changes and not just what we will be ignoring in 7th I gave my two cents.
 

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My friends and I won't be using unbound forces
This is the most narrow-sighted view (and far too common) that has come out of the debate over the new rules.

As-Is, Unbound is no more or less broken than Battle-Forged. Are there ways to "abuse" both systems? Yes. However, Unbound does several things that Battle-Forged does not. It allows those of us who have collected niche armies over the years to play them (see my thread in the army lists about Unbound Harlequins, a true Tyranid swarm is another)...it also allows for players to better represent armies that are difficult to do under Battle-Forged (the Assault company or Scout Company for marines for example, Ravenwing or Deathwing without paying the character tax, even a Tau suit army without having to play Farsight Enclave).

Those are just two examples of the reasons to use Unbound. Better narrative gaming, easier incorporation for hobbyists or collectors, or even just slamming truly ridiculous spam lists are all other reasons.

If you have a problem with players in your group bringing stupid, "unfun", or "WAAC" lists...talk to those players because they are tools and will be bringing the same overpowered crap in Battle-Forged. Don't be a wet blanket over some other player's creativity in the off chance another tool will be a dick.

As for the game-play side of the Battle-Forged/Unbound equation...I can tell you from actual on the board play experience, Objective Secured is a powerful tool against Unbound armies and will hamper the ability of the Unbound player to score victory points.
 

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Just use different models, paint them differently, and hey presto.

For example Eldar planting hallucinations in the mind of the enemy so real, they actually die when struck by them in combat (Bloodletters). Paint up some Harlies to look like ghosts.
This reminds me of a D&D Character which uses Illusions which mirror the effects of actual damaging spells, but cause less damage to the target should they believe it to be an illusion. However, you could superpower the Illusions so much so that they'd cause more damage to someone who believed they were an illusion.

Seems like a fantastic concept.



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Let me clarify...I don't like the fluff alteration.
But the fluff really hasn't changed here has it? This is a rules change, if you think about it there has always been a basis in fluff for loyalist factions being swayed by or turning to daemons to fight for them. Just because the rules did not allow for it previously does not mean it never happened.

Astartes and humans fall prey to Chaos on a regular basis, and this whole thread has outlined alternative ways to utilize the rules. I'm not aware of any new fluff that says loyal space marines occasionally enlist the aid of daemons...
 

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I mean hell, you can even represent it as Teleporting/Grav Chute-ing Adeptus Mechanicus allies if you like. Model up some Skitarii with different armour and weapons to represent the different Daemons...
 

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Well, the imperium DOES summon actual demons, but usually only crazy inquisitors. That's been in the fluff for ages.

It's really one of those things that is in the fluff and is incredibly rare but in game terms is way different. If plasma guns ACTUALLY blew up in your face 1 in 6 times you fired them who on earth would use them? How would they still exist so long after being made? Loyalists do summon daemons, once in a blue moon, time of greatest need, driven mad by whispers of chaos, the usual reasons. It's just the ability to summon hordes of them consistently that misrepresents it in game terms.

You could also say it was an accident, you tried to summon a sword to cut an enemy in half and the bloodthirster held on too it tighter than you expected. :p
 
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