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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter #1
Well, Razorbacks tend to be left out of most lists due to low capacity, low armor and relatively high points cost.

But the newer breed of codices has made them more viable by lowering their cost and introducing Combat Squads and the ability for a 10 man squad to take a razorback (they just can't mount up in it unless they deploy as combat squads)

And if you have enough other dangerous armored targets (like Baal predators, vindicators, and the like), it's likely that the razorback will be ignored, or absorb shots that would be better spent against the bigger targets.

But how do you go about using RBs effectively? Transports are about getting the troops to where they need to be, and doing it faster than you could by just walking...but if a vehicle moves faster than a brisk walk it can't fire its weapons!

So do you do a one-turn rush at 12" and then slow down and disembark troops then? Or do you just crawl the razorbacks forward to maximize their firepower? Do you even bother embarking and just walk the troops behind them as mobile cover? Or do you just deploy the RB in a different location and treat it as a light tank, leaving its squad to fend for themselves?

What do you guys suggest?
 

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From what ive seen people use it as a mobile fire support base for the sqaud its attached to, mainly by rushing 12" the first couple of turns then popping the troops then if its still alive acting as a support fire base for that squad on the objective or where ever they are entrenched, another is moving 6" with the troops using it to deny LoS and it still acting as a mobile fire base for the squad, hope that helps
 

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i have RB in my list. I use it to establish a fire base. Dont fire weapons, get to a comfortable spot, and then blast the living shit out of your enemy with the turrets and the passengers.
 

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Yes, I tend to use RB for mad rushing and use Smoke or cover while I run up, then I use the RBs to deny shots from squads close to my squad.

Kinda like this: #s are enemy squads, the box is the RB, and the x is my squad:
1111
|_____|
xxx 2

Then 2 gets shot by my squad, 1 and anyone near 1 can't shoot me, and my guys are free to charge next turn.
 

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I've seen them used best in numbers. Overloading the target selection with 'cheaper' vehicles that can take down any tank is definitely a plausible way to take out another army, provided that then infantry attached to the tank can take care of whats left.

Had a Space Wolf playing buddy of mine use 3 RBs with Lascannons, 3 Pred Annies, 3 Dreads w/ Lascannons (one Venerable, of course) all in support of a large squad of Blood Claws with teleporting Priest. 9 TLLCs plus another 4 Lascannons can be really tough, and the army was very good against any other army with less than 100 models. Horde Bugs, and my mixed IG with 120+ models usually ate his list up.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The list I'm currently pondering would have two Baal predators, an Anni and two LC razors, along with a big nasty death company and VAS, and Mephiston. Lots of targets.
 

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RB only holds 6 guys. If I ever use it(which is rare),I put a deathwatch kill team in it or a command sqd. 6 bolter guys jumping out to dble tap is ok but only vs enemy shock troop sqds. If used just for TL Las then that's a waste of pts.

common mistake of players is to use up all their hvy wpn shots on opp big bad tanks. Go for the troop transports 1rst. Easier to pen and take away mobility.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
While it's true that transports are easier to take down, that doesn't necessarily mean they're the best target. The damage a Baal predator, or a Vinsicator can do compared to a rhino with 5 marines in it is astronomica.

Shooting at transports is a gamble. Sometimes it;s a good idea, but sometimes it;s a waste.

Also remember that transports can be fielded empty, and you don;t have to tell your enemy whose squad it belongs to or what's inside.

I fielded a JP heavy Blood Angels list once, with two 6-man las/plas tacticals (this was before the new codex), a couple assault squads, two baal predators.
And one rhino...

The tacticals deployed and set up, the jump troops moved forward, and the rhino made a rush for the center line, flanked by the baals.

Naturally, the other guy assumed my rhino contained my Death Company (because the DC were neatly arranged off the field, awaiting deployment), so rather than shootong at my tanks, he fired everything he could at the rhino.

It took a couple lascannon hits to bring it down...and when he did, he was very pissed to find out that it was totally empty. The rhino belonged to one of the tactical squads!

The next turn my Death Company and their Chaplain deep struck in with Jump Packs, while the unmolested Baal predators ripped his armor apart ;-)

So targeting transports can be a good idea...but it can also be a total waste. It's a gamble. The key is to present enough targets that you make the other guy agonize over what's the best choice
 

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I think it all depends on what you are expecting to face. Against elite armies, using Razorbacks with your own elite troops inside can be useful. In that case, you'd want to rush forward using cover as much as possible, drop the troops and then go headhunting. However, against an army that can put a lot of anti tank and transport fire out, you'd be better off leaving them at home.

If I were to use Razorbacks, I'd load assault troops into them and rush them forward en masse, leaving a few razorbacks or rhinos empty to up the chances of survival. Or better yet, take a Land Raider (Empty or full) Crusader and put that in the middle of them all. Then do something like a modified Fish of Fury. Drop your troops out about 12 inches from the enemy, use your razorbacks to block LOS. Anything that is dumb enough to stand and shoot that turn will kill a cheap transport, and your assault troops can charge them with ease. Otherwise, they lose a turn of shooting.

Another thing would be to use them to get Devestators into position. If it gets blown up, oh well, now it's a potential 4+ cover save and your big guns are in position to cause some serious trouble. Other than that, I 'd use them like a Devilfish with a bigger gun. A light tank that runs around closing firing lanes and blocking LOS or assaults.

Hope that made sense...I don't exactly play Space Marines very often.
 

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Razorbacks have a place, but generally, Space Marines are better served by having full-strength squads. A Razorback can compliment an assault army quite well as a means of delivering a second-wave assault. The dual heavy bolters can soften up opposing squads quite well before assault squads jump over the mobile cover the AFVs provide and carve up the remains. The tactical squads inside the Razorbacks (or alternatively, the Devastator squads hanging out in the back lines while the Razorbacks advance) can provide anti-tank ops via missile launchers or meltaguns.
 

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I use my RBs as light tank using their TLLC to create havoc. My last game, my 2 RBs outmaneuvoured 2 Baneblades, completly frustrating the player as I circled the super heavies taking TL potshots :grin:
 

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I only really use razorbacks in combat patrol, where they go from a second rate machine to king. I usually load them out with TLHB, smokes (duh), extra armor, and, if i'm expecting another vehicle, a HK missile, though I usually leave the tankkilling up to my squads when the points are this low. The last time I used one, it cut through my friend's Dire Avengers, and pretty much won me the game.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
The problem with the razorback is its armament vs its ideal uses.

A 5 man team is usually too small to be effective in assault (exceptions being veteran squads and the like with lots of attacks and weapon options), and being mounted is a bad thing for heavy weapon teams, since it denies you shots...so the best use for a small, mounted squad is going to be meltagunning or rapid-fire support (and even then, rapid fire is best done en masse)

A meltagun and a powerfist in a razor can be deadly, and at first blush, logic suggests sticking them in a HB razor because of the closer range of the weapon.

However, if you're hunting ICs or tanks with the squad, you're going to want it to have the firepower that'll do damage against the target. Which means Lascannon, not HB.

So the best weapon for a melta/fist RB squad is really the lascannon, despite the close range and assaulty nature of the unit.

Now, back to the other use for a small, mounted squad, fire-support. While it's true that a traditional 6-man Las/Plas suffers greatly when it's moving in and out of transports, and replacing the man-portable lascannon with a razorback is costly and inefficient with codex SM

But in the new SM codices, the only way to get that lascannon is buying an extra 5 men...and razorbacks are cheaper than buying 5 men and a lascannon.

So you could set up a razorback squad as 5 men, a plasgun and a lascannon razorback acting as the 6th man. It's cheaper than a 10 man fire team, and more mobile since they can mount up, redeploy and not lose the lascannon shots...but it is more fragile, and still fairly costly.

About the only place for the heavy bolter is if you're hard up on points and/or attempting a small assault squad. The HB is billed as an anti-troop weapon, but it only has three shots, so it's better at anti-troop than most weapons, but it alone isn't going to put a big hole in anyone's units. It's not going to make up for 3-5 more pistol shots and 6-10 more close combat attacks, let alone the extra wounds.

If you're going for a HB razor assault, the best troop payload is a team of veterans (honour guard, veteran SM, command squads). This partially makes up for the lack of bodies, and the weapon options available can make up for some of the firepower loss. In this case, springing the extra 5 points for a pintle SB could help.

For Blood Angels, the only real option is Honour Guard (Veteran Assault has better options but cannot have a razor). We don't have any choice but to deploy them as a 5 man squad, so the razor only adds to their capability.

For my list (which is going completely uncommented on in the army list thread ;-) ) I've got two lascannon Razor squads with plasguns, and an honour guard with two meltas, a powerfist and a HB razor.

The honour guard unit is meant as a take all comers squad. I know I said earlier that the HB is wasted on tank-breaker squads, but since the HG can have two meltas, the loss of the lascannon isn't a big problem, and it frees up points for the powerfist. So the squad has 14 normal attacks and 4 powerfist attacks on the charge, can vaporize two peopie outright with the meltas, then lay out 3 pistol shots and 3 HB shots...they fcan put a dent in tanks, ICs or most squads. Not ideal at anything but balanced and relatively cost effective.

I just really wish I could free up points to get a storm bolter for the transport.
 

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>> I use a RB with a pack of Grey Hunters in. I generally punt it 12, behind a wall if possible, disembark the Hunters, then dig in. Having a Lascannon wi them helps if dreads or armour try ti harrass them.
 

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galahad, that is how i use my RBs. My list is only tankhunting, two meltaguns and a fist in a lazerback.
 

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RB only holds 6 guys. If I ever use it(which is rare),I put a deathwatch kill team in it or a command sqd. 6 bolter guys jumping out to dble tap is ok but only vs enemy shock troop sqds. If used just for TL Las then that's a waste of pts.

common mistake of players is to use up all their hvy wpn shots on opp big bad tanks. Go for the troop transports 1rst. Easier to pen and take away mobility.
ok first, putting big heavy weapons on big heavy tanks is a tactic used because generaly big bad tanks last longer than transports and lay down a lot more firepower, generally taking out your anti-tank weapons, rendering you useless at eliminating the transport. Split your fire between both, say 70/30 towards the heavy tanks.
a weapons on a RB is used for supporting the contents. equip it to support what the squad does. example : if the squad is anti-tank then put some anti infantry weaponry on it to protect them, and vice versa. OR equip it with the same type of weapon as the squad to add that extra little firepower that might take out the target.

secondly, please consider your lettering and use of txt language, missing vowels and so on. it makes the post that much more difficult to read and encourages the use of such language, deteriorating the current high state of posting within this forum. Not trying to be touchy or rude, just maintaining the high quality of this forum.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
galahad, that is how i use my RBs. My list is only tankhunting, two meltaguns and a fist in a lazerback.
If I had the points, I'd upgrade my HG razor to have lascannons, but I just ran out of points. While the HB doesn't help any in tank hunting, it does give the unit a little flex as far as multiple roles go, and two meltas and a fist can still do a number on amror
 

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Also remember that transports can be fielded empty, and you don;t have to tell your enemy whose squad it belongs to or what's inside.
Not sure how you manage this one?

Simply by being observant your opponent can tell if it has something in or not.

"I'm deploying this Tactical Squad and it's Rhino"

If you just put down the Rhino...it's pretty obvious they're inside.
If they deploy elsewhere, then it's obvious that it's empty.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
You've never been in a position to deploy two units at once because of having more units than the other guy?

Plus, with Combat Squads if I plunk down 5 guys and a Rhino or Razorback, how do you know whether there's anyone in there? Did I buy a transport for my 5 man squad, or did I buy it for a 10 man that I split up? You have no way of knowing, and I sure a shell won't tell you.
 
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