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Discussion Starter #1
Pre hh, the emperor calls for corax and instructs him personally that he wants him and his legion to whipe out the nightlords and konrad.

The emperor shortly after summons konrad and instructs him that he wants him and his legion to whipe out the raven guard for heresey.

Both the raven guard and nightlords are located in the eastern fringe, and are hunting one another under the premise that they must anihilate the other for the emperor.

So I have several questions for all of you....

1. Which do you think will fare better in space battle, ship tp ship?

2. Which legion do you think will fare better in large scale ground wars?

3. Which legion will fare better in small scale fights? Such as assassinations, infiltration, sabotage.

4. Which legion will be on the offensive and defensive primarily?

5. How do you see the war panning out? Will it be short, or will one or both of the legions drag it on for decades to pick off the other slowly, cut off their supply lines? And if so which do you think will win?

6. In small squad vs squad scenarios which willwin?

7. And finally, corax vs night haunter, whcih do you think is better at assassination? And which is better and more likely to survive an assassination by the other?

8. Corax vs konrad straight up brawl with one another, who wins?

9. Which primarch is the better general in tactical acumen and large scale acumen (forgot name).
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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Just want to say this makes no sense but.....

#1 None are noted for being all that good at ship to ship so I say the raven guard.

#2 Raven Guard.

#3 Raven Guard.

#4 They are both stealth/ guerilla warfare so it will be a shit storm of one dude ambushing the other while being ambushed performing an ambush.

#5 Long protracted cluster fuck but I see the raven guard winning simply because they are suppose to be the masters of stealth and terror probably wont work.

#6 Raven Guard, better at combat.

#7 Corax.... the sob could become virtually invisible. Corax, kruze would just give up again.

#8 Corax, he was suppose to be one of the best fighters of the Primarchs.

#9 IDK

Yeah, Night Lords are great against targets such as imperial worlds but against a target who is better at you are at stealth combat and your terror tactics are rendered almost mute.... your are in for a bad day.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I've noticed some say the night lords lose effectiveness versus another legion due to fear being minimized. However fear is ever present and space marines are not immune to its effects, psychological warfare is what the nightlords exceel in, fear is a tool that effects those who think they are immune to it, more so then those who are openly terrorized by it.
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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It effects them but they are just trained not to let it hamper their combat effectiveness. Their neurochemistry has been changed so dramatically that to attempt to beat them in such a manor would be all but useless. It's simply not an effective tactic. When fighting other marines, the night lords have lost their edge.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The same can be said about stealth, that space marines due to their superiority, stealth against them loses their edge, the same stance can be taken for any dimensional approach...

Fear isn't about scaring an individual, it is about manipulating them to do an action or to have a lack of action. Konrad, and the nightlords are masters of this, fear would be employed in such a manner as influencing the ravens to attack, or not to attack, and once in combat, to influence their perception. The nightlords would actively be influencing the ravens perception of the battle, false sense of victory, inaccurate numbers, battle reports tweaked, and as the ravens fight on and slowly or quickly see and experience that their perception and reality do not coincide that is what effects them and influences them.

Its not about saying boo and making them run, no...fear is about shaping the paradigm and reality or lack there of reality of your target/s.

Space marines are in no way immune to this, and going by what the heresey showed, are even more vulnerable and effected by cognitive shaping then normal civilians are.
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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That's standard missdirecting tactics.... Not terror warfare. Raven guard have the beat in that respect and no it can't be said about all aspects of combat. A stealth attack doesn't hinge upon your ability to ware down the enemy. Trying to use ambush and hit and run tactics against the Raven Guard would be like trying to ambush a ghost. You managed to pick the one loyalist legion that does what thy do better than them.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I've never heard of misdirecting tactics...what I just described is what I called it...cognitive shaping, paradigm influence. Its psychological warfare and that is what the nightlords specialize in, partocularly versus humanoids which are what the ravens are. Civilians, space marines, primarchs, the emperor, all adhered to human in nature and all were and are deply affected by human psychological perceptions.
 

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So I have several questions for all of you....

1. Which do you think will fare better in space battle, ship tp ship?

2. Which legion do you think will fare better in large scale ground wars?

3. Which legion will fare better in small scale fights? Such as assassinations, infiltration, sabotage.

4. Which legion will be on the offensive and defensive primarily?

5. How do you see the war panning out? Will it be short, or will one or both of the legions drag it on for decades to pick off the other slowly, cut off their supply lines? And if so which do you think will win?

6. In small squad vs squad scenarios which willwin?

7. And finally, corax vs night haunter, whcih do you think is better at assassination? And which is better and more likely to survive an assassination by the other?

8. Corax vs konrad straight up brawl with one another, who wins?

9. Which primarch is the better general in tactical acumen and large scale acumen (forgot name).
1) Raven Gaurd are not known for ship egagements neither NLs, tie.

2) Tie again. RG are about small egagements, NLs are are about Hit and Runs on superior larger forces. Both never really commit large forces to a single battle.

3) Tie Again, RG and NLs do this almost as much as Alpha Legion.

4) This is easy, NLs all the way. NLs are always taking it to the enemy, thats terror tatics, where RG are use to running and hiding.

5) NLs would win in a drag out fight. They are more aggressive by nature and their terror tatics will drain what little resolve the RG can muster. Its either a short bout with NLs or be worn down mentaly and physicaly.

6) Depends, RG and NLs typically use Jump Packs and its anyones guess.

7) This is pointless as neither one will assassinate the other.

8) Night Haunter punked out Dorn, and unlike Corax been brought up fighting his entire life. Corax was describe as a very slim Primarch and seeing as how there is little to know info on Corax to remark on I give it to Conrad everyday.

9) I give this to NLs again as they have beaten the odds and still reign more victories than RG can account for in the Fluff. The RG were decimated in the Heresy and continue to be in limit numbers in 40k. NLs through numberes and resources win everyday.

Just want to say this makes no sense but.....

#1 None are noted for being all that good at ship to ship so I say the raven guard.

#2 Raven Guard.

#3 Raven Guard.

#4 They are both stealth/ guerilla warfare so it will be a shit storm of one dude ambushing the other while being ambushed performing an ambush.

#5 Long protracted cluster fuck but I see the raven guard winning simply because they are suppose to be the masters of stealth and terror probably wont work.

#6 Raven Guard, better at combat.

#7 Corax.... the sob could become virtually invisible. Corax, kruze would just give up again.

#8 Corax, he was suppose to be one of the best fighters of the Primarchs.

#9 IDK

Yeah, Night Lords are great against targets such as imperial worlds but against a target who is better at you are at stealth combat and your terror tactics are rendered almost mute.... your are in for a bad day.
Have you ever heard of Night Haunter? Guess not.
 

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1. Which do you think will fare better in space battle, ship tp ship?
As people have said neither was known for being particularly skilled or unskilled at such fighting

2. Which legion do you think will fare better in large scale ground wars?
As above- The Raven Guard are renowned for their Guerilla Tactics, being one of the more successful Legions in the Great Crusade (despite Horus claiming a large number of their victories as his own) but operate in small units similar to the NL

3. Which legion will fare better in small scale fights? Such as assassinations, infiltration, sabotage.
Infiltration and Sabotage are the hallmarks of the Raven Guard, the Night Lord are very able at all those tasks as well but not to the degree that the RG are

4. Which legion will be on the offensive and defensive primarily?
Both will be constantly acting offensively, the 2 Legion's M.O emphasises attack and infiltration over defence.

5. How do you see the war panning out? Will it be short, or will one or both of the legions drag it on for decades to pick off the other slowly, cut off their supply lines? And if so which do you think will win?
With both Legions being guerilla forces I can see the war dragging on for years or decades, but in the end I'd give it to the Raven Guard as they're perfectly trained for such drawn out affairs.

6. In small squad vs squad scenarios which willwin?
I'd actually give it to the Night Lords in most cases cause I think one on one they're just nastier.

7. And finally, corax vs night haunter, whcih do you think is better at assassination? And which is better and more likely to survive an assassination by the other?
Both are uniquely skilled at assassination and avoidance thereof, I'd say it was even in terms of ability to avoid being killed but Kurze holds the advantage due to his background on being the killer.

8. Corax vs konrad straight up brawl with one another, who wins?
Konrad Curze hands down- he's a brutal combatant, a monster almost and whilst I wouldn't fancy his chances against someone like Russ, Angron or Horus he's more than capable, in my opinion, of taking down Corax.

9. Which primarch is the better general in tactical acumen and large scale acumen (forgot name).
Corax- he was raised to be the consumate Guerilla Leader, Night Haunter was taught the power of Fear & distrust so when it comes to large battles I'll take Deliverance's Son over Nostramo's.
That's my viewpoint- The Raven Guard/Alpha Legion (and their respective Primarchs) would be exactly the worst Legions for the Ngiht Lords to attack.
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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I've never heard of misdirecting tactics...what I just described is what I called it...cognitive shaping, paradigm influence. Its psychological warfare and that is what the nightlords specialize in, partocularly versus humanoids which are what the ravens are. Civilians, space marines, primarchs, the emperor, all adhered to human in nature and all were and are deply affected by human psychological perceptions.
Terror tactics are only one aspect of psychological warfare. Again, they are all effected but with the changed to their neuro chemistry it would seem that a SM would be even less so than the run of the mill human. You can say it as much as you want but raven guard live for this kind of warfare, it would be much less effective on them.

@ warlock, you seem to know little to nothing about the raven guard so I wouldn't talk.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Gen ahab, I smile when I wake up, knowing that at the very least I usually will have you and baron von spikey to reply to. Thus never a boring thread :)
 

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@ warlock, you seem to know little to nothing about the raven guard so I wouldn't talk.
Well how about pointing me to some BL books or SM fluff the Raven Gaurd are in... hmmm.. I cant seem to find any anywhere, just some Background on Corax. Hell the only time Raven Gaurd are mention is after there Legion was nearly wiped out in the Dropsite Massacre. What happen with that Legion after that? Whole lot nothin.

Gen.ahab I wouldnt talk neither.
 

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Well how about pointing me to some BL books or SM fluff the Raven Gaurd are in... hmmm.. I cant seem to find any anywhere, just some Background on Corax. Hell the only time Raven Gaurd are mention is after there Legion was nearly wiped out in the Dropsite Massacre. What happen with that Legion after that? Whole lot nothin.

Gen.ahab I wouldnt talk neither.
Cadian Blood by Aaron Dembski-Bowden, Chapter's Due by Graham McNeill, and they'll feature heavily in The Hunt for Voldorius by Andy Hoare.

5th Edition Codex: Space Marines-Pg.42-43, Pg.92

Index Astartes: Raven Guard

How about doing some basic checking before you get all pissy?
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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Yeah... Except they are mentioned in quite afew black library books, cadian blood for one and I believe they have their own audio book, raven flight maybe? I aware of what Kruze did and what he specialized in and Corax and the Raven Guard were the masters of guerrilla warfare. They beat the nightlords hand down in that respect. Oh and perhaps you should check out he sm codex and maybe the index astartes I am sure there is something.
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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Oppp. I see the baron has me covered. Lol
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Hmmm this has been a very enlightening experience.

What about kurze vs corax? In primarch vs primarch fight, what do you think? I know corax has semi invisibility by being able to cloud the minds of those he chooses....but if it is so powerful why was corax so fearful of fighting angron, and believed angron would kill him decisively if they were to fight, could he not be invisible to angron and stealthfully head shot him or decapitate him?

This is why I believe kurze could kill corax in a straight up duel.
 

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personally with the traits that both night lords and raven guard being similiar, both use the darkness as thier allies, when both attack theres no escaping it and despite corax being not as well built as some of his other brothers i am sure he more then makes up for it.
always seen corax as edgar allen poe type personage..anyway i think it would be a tie all the way not one better and not one worse and in a stand up fight between the two...i'd have to say they might maul each other but seeing as Konrad almost took out Dorn i'd have to go with him although it would be close call
 

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Cadian Blood by Aaron Dembski-Bowden, Chapter's Due by Graham McNeill, and they'll feature heavily in The Hunt for Voldorius by Andy Hoare.

5th Edition Codex: Space Marines-Pg.42-43, Pg.92

Index Astartes: Raven Guard

How about doing some basic checking before you get all pissy?
Please Baron it takes more than internet talk talk about space men to get me pissy :laugh:. Like getting shot in real life :so_happy:.

Anyway Ive read 5th Ed SM Dex. The fluff there is small and pitiful.
As for the BL Books you tell me there "Featured" in these 3 books. Thats still very little fluff to base them on anything. Do they even sell Index Astartes still? So far thats the only heavy and reliable fluff.

Thanks for proving my point as I did the research. The fact is there is so little fluff on Pre Heresy on DG, RG, WS, and IH that its pathetic. :wink:

Im hoping that with these niffty smile Icons people wont mistake my intnetions as both you have. :p
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I still dont't see why the RG outclass the NL's in near everything as some say they do....where is the fluff stating as warlock has brought up, stating that they outshine the nightlords in near everything they do?....

Also ahab my dear.....you say the nightlords wouldn't be able to hit the rg's as its like attacking a ghost? Would it not be the same for the rg's? Both legions are masters of stealth, hit and run, and I see no reason why the rg's would be better at it....seems like a toss up to me.

Now as for the nightlords being less effective vs astartes....has this ever been stated in canon by narrator? Terror tactics is as effective vs vs astartes as it is non astartes. Terror tactics does not = scare your opponent, terror tactics = disruption. And if you tell me astartes are inherently more resilliant to disruption, which they are not as the heresey showed, then the same can be said astartes are herently more resilliant to siege warfare, to guerilla tactics, to shock warefare, etc.

Being phiosologically more resilliant to the neurological transmitters which chemically cause the sensation of fear biologically, in no way reduces the effect terror tactics and psychological warfare has upon said individual and or masses of them.

Ever see case studies done on individuals who are emotionally "dead", or to be more precise lack the phsiological receptors in their brain to properly experience fear and the other primary six emotions? Fear still effects them, even more so, as that lack of fear or blunted experience/perception of it, often leads them, pulls them to lethal situations/ends statistically more often then a "normal" individual.

The rg is no more a master of stealth, hit and run, sabotage, and so forth than the nl's are.

What it comes down to are tactics, not numbers in this match up, as both legions are small. So the question is, which legion will be able to break the other legion first, or starve them by cutting off their supply lines, or strike at vital points. Too many variables, but for the sake of this threads point which is to spark meaningful discussion and perceive a myriad of different individuals perceptive viewpoints, I will say after a long war the nightlords will come out alive with the ravenguard broken beyond repair.
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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Please Baron it takes more than internet talk talk about space men to get me pissy :laugh:. Like getting shot in real life :so_happy:.

Anyway Ive read 5th Ed SM Dex. The fluff there is small and pitiful.
As for the BL Books you tell me there "Featured" in these 3 books. Thats still very little fluff to base them on anything. Do they even sell Index Astartes still? So far thats the only heavy and reliable fluff.

Thanks for proving my point as I did the research. The fact is there is so little fluff on Pre Heresy on DG, RG, WS, and IH that its pathetic. :wink:

Im hoping that with these niffty smile Icons people wont mistake my intnetions as both you have. :p
They don't need to be the stars, although they do have their own book, for you to learn what you need. Just read around.
 
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