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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In Deliverance Lost we see how the new geneseed created by Corax is corrupted by the Alpha Legion. However, unless I'm missing something, this changes the fluff from the Index Astartes article which states that the Raven Guard's current geneseed is ruined due to Corax's tampering.

Well we know from Deliverance Lost that Corax didn't tamper with the existing geneseed, he created new geneseed which was then corrupted. The existing geneseed from the survivors of Istvaan V and the rescuing fleet was uncorrupted and could continue to be used.

This makes sense when we consider the Raven Guard's successor Chapters who although they (as far as we have information) share the white skin and in some cases the black hair (although not with the Death Spectres who lose their hair) none of the successors are noted to have the same geneseed problems as their parent Chapter.

Does this imply that Corax actually attempted to alter the existing geneseed at some point after the Black Guard, the Revilers and the Raptors split off from the Raven Guard or that the Raven Guard geneseed has deteriorated after the 2nd founding Chapters were formed? I wonder if we'll ever find out.
 

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Which really doesnt make a lot of sense. As long Corax was around, they could just draw fresh geneseed from the primarch himself to replenish their stocks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Which really doesnt make a lot of sense. As long Corax was around, they could just draw fresh geneseed from the primarch himself to replenish their stocks.
Exactly, I hope GW cover this particular plot hole somehow.
 

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I wish we could just ignore Deliverance Lost altogether! :laugh:
 

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Just another example of how the Horus Heresy writers are screweing up the Core Lore/Fluff of Warhammer 40k. :(
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I wish we could just ignore Deliverance Lost altogether! :laugh:
Lol, I loved the novel but it raised more questions than it answered! :) Unless they plan follow up novels to answer the questions.

Massive speculation on my part but I wonder if as many people have said, when the Alpha Legion splits into loyalist and traitor forces, the loyalists come back to Deliverance to try to help the Raven Guard and this then unfortunately damages the geneseed further?
 

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Which really doesnt make a lot of sense. As long Corax was around, they could just draw fresh geneseed from the primarch himself to replenish their stocks.
Um... unless there's a huge piece of fluff out there I'm missing, since when were the Primarchs themselves used to generate geneseed, or the technology available to do so? The Astartes geneseed was being developed by the Emperor himself while the Primarchs were still under the mountain in the Himalays, tucked away in their ceramite and glass cradles. In Deliverance Lost, Corax gets the incalculable gift of the primogenetor genetic soup used for the creation of all the primarchs, then makes a completely new template based on that for developing a different generation of Astartes that doesn't seem to require the need for surgeries or multiple organs for implantation... at least there's no mention of them creating geneseed organs at all in the book that I can recall, which is one of the many issues with the book.

A Primarch being able to extract their own genetic material and create new geneseed would have yielded a nearly unending stream of Chaos Marines by now, or allowed the Imperium to ramp up their new geneseed production to the sky both pre and post Scouring. If Papa Smurf could have produced an even more prolific stream of mini-me's following the Heresy, I'm sure he would have bent the resources of the Imperium to do so.
 

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According to Lex:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Geneseed

The development of these organs took many centuries and the research was in fact an off-shoot of the aborted Primarch project. The Primarchs were god-like beings whose powers far outstripped even that of a "regular" Space Marine. Samples of genetic tissue were taken from each of the fetal Primarchs and used to create the gene-seed of the original twenty Space Marine Legions. Thus each of the original Legions (and therefore their Successor Chapters) inherited some traits associated with their specific Primarch.


And the traitor legions have long been raiding the loyalists for their geneseed, as its speculated that exposure to the warp makes it unstable and hampers their ability to create new marines. Plus all of the surviving traitor primarchs are daemons now, no true flesh left in them to draw geneseed material from.


And regarding Gully. Whos not to say that he did? They were after all the ones holding the imperium together during the Scourging. And the Ultras are well known as the largest legion, with the majority of astartes descended from them.
 

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Um... unless there's a huge piece of fluff out there I'm missing, since when were the Primarchs themselves used to generate geneseed, or the technology available to do so?
After the Emperor's Children had been reduced to just 200 marines during the GC, they were able to quickly rebuild their ranks after finding Fulgrim, from the FW book Betrayal, "The Emperor's Children could begin to rebuild. The discovery of Fulgrim allowed the rapid synthesising of geneseed..."
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
After the Emperor's Children had been reduced to just 200 marines during the GC, they were able to quickly rebuild their ranks after finding Fulgrim, from the FW book Betrayal, "The Emperor's Children could begin to rebuild. The discovery of Fulgrim allowed the rapid synthesising of geneseed..."
Damn, beat me to it! :)

Also the death of Sanguinius caused the Black Rage as when he died the Blood Angels continued using his genetic material to create geneseed which now causes Blood Angels to have visions of Sanguinius' death.
 

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Regarding Sanguinius, the visions began to happen when they drew blood from his corpse and kept it the Red Grail. But the sanguinary priests circulate the blood of the primarch in their own bodies, before draining it back.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sanguinary_Priest

Because of this role, the Sanguinary Priests are responsible for the care of the Red Grail, the chalice holding the blood of Sanguinius himself. This blood is regularly circulated through the veins of the Sanguinary Priests, who are injected with a sample from the Grail, then later cut themselves to bleed it back in. In this way, the blood is continuously kept fresh, and every single draught from the Grail contains a small percentage of the original blood of the Primarch.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Regarding Sanguinius, the visions began to happen when they drew blood from his corpse and kept it the Red Grail. But the sanguinary priests circulate the blood of the primarch in their own bodies, before draining it back.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sanguinary_Priest

Because of this role, the Sanguinary Priests are responsible for the care of the Red Grail, the chalice holding the blood of Sanguinius himself. This blood is regularly circulated through the veins of the Sanguinary Priests, who are injected with a sample from the Grail, then later cut themselves to bleed it back in. In this way, the blood is continuously kept fresh, and every single draught from the Grail contains a small percentage of the original blood of the Primarch.
Sorry, my mistake. However I'm sure I read somewhere (possibly in an older codex) that the Blood Angel's geneseed was damaged in the battle for Terra and so they had to use geneseed from Sanguinius along with his blood to "activate" it via Insanguination? This might have been retconned now though.

The wording I can find from Wiki (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Grail) reads

"The process of Insanguination was originally triggered by injecting the Aspirants with tiny samples of their Primarch's own blood. This practice, of course, ended with the tragic death of Sanguinius at the hands of Horus during the Battle of Terra. However, some of his blood was preserved within the Blood Angels artefact known as the Red Grail. The still-living blood could not be kept this way for long and so it was injected into the veins of the Sanguinary Priests. In this way they became living hosts to the power of Sanguinius. To this day, the drinking of the collected blood of the assembled Sanguinary Priests from the relic called the Red Grail is part of the induction ritual for all Blood Angels Priests as well as the Chapter's Aspirants.

It is from these Sanguinary Priests that blood is taken to trigger the transformation of Aspirants into Space Marines. It is possible that over the countless generations since the time of the Horus Heresy the cells within the Blood Angels' gene-seed have mutated, slowly at first but more quickly in recent years, and that cumulative errors in DNA replication have resulted in the Flaw. Whatever the reason for the Flaw, it is certain that its hold over the Blood Angels has become ever stronger, and their tendency towards self-destructive insanity greater. Unless it can be halted and reversed, the Chapter and all of its Successors are doomed to extinction."
 

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Well if going by Fear to Thread, the Flaw, aka the Red Thirst was present while Sanguinius was alive. But his death after the antics on Signus Prime caused the Black Rage.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Well if going by Fear to Thread, the Flaw, aka the Red Thirst was present while Sanguinius was alive. But his death after the antics on Signus Prime caused the Black Rage.
Yeah, but it's strange that the Black Rage causes them to see visions of his death, not of his wounding by Ka'Bhandha
 

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Probably because it didnt kill him. Though getting legbroken did caused the blood angels to go into a frenzy, foreshadowing the true black rage upon his death. Though one could argue that that frenzy was the product of the Ragefire starting to affect them. And even with Meros sparing Sanguinius from the fate of absorbing it, he was still tainted by it. A ticking bomb that would go off on his death. Damning his sons to suffer the horror of his final moments for eternity.
 
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