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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So, as a side topic that sort of evolved out of a different thread

I had mentioned that I actually liked the old/original Force Organization Chart, and well, A "debate" of sorts kind of emerged that I found interesting.

personally i hated the old FOC..it was too restrictive..i always thought i wish i could do this or that..
I disagree with this. If you want to run a 1st Company army, or a 10th Company army, or a Biker army, you should be allowed to do that. Not all Space Marine forces consist of Tactical Squads, or even have Tactical Squads. Not all Necron dynasties rely on Warriors.

If I could have a choice between modern Formations and the FOC swaps of 5th ed, I'd totally pick the FOC swaps as it allowed you to make a themed force without having to bring certain units and more importantly, didn't limit you in bringing other units.
So I was wondering, how would you see your favorite factions Force Org chart to be laid out?

Rules for this little Game

Must have 17 Slots - No more no less (2 HQ + 6 Troop + 9 Elite/Fast Attack/heavy Support = 17) for a level playing field.

1 HQ must be mandatory, 2 additional slots are also mandatory

Chapter/Faction Specific force orgs are ok - So you can have a "Space Marine" force org (which looks like the default one IMO) as well as a "Black Templar" Force Org chart

Force Org swaps are in play if wanted - Explain

You are granted to have 1(One) Army wide special rule as a bonus (Such as the BA one where they get +1 Initiative when they charge)

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I shall await to see the creativity flow.
 

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I'm all for scrapping FOCs altogether. If you decide you want to run an all dreadnought SM force, there shouldn't be anything limiting your choice. You have a tone of minis, you want to put them on the board if they are within the points limit, go for it. A HQ is probably the only thing I'd make compulsory, as every force needs a designated commander. After that, free for all.
 

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I'm all for scrapping FOCs altogether. If you decide you want to run an all dreadnought SM force, there shouldn't be anything limiting your choice. You have a tone of minis, you want to put them on the board if they are within the points limit, go for it. A HQ is probably the only thing I'd make compulsory, as every force needs a designated commander. After that, free for all.
That's called Unbound, and the rules exist for it. However, I feel that it's 'cheating' considering all of the options already available with Formations, Detachments, etc. There are so many options that you should be able to find something you like, and that's part of the fun to me; building a list and overcoming the requirements.


For me, I'd like to see something Thousand Sons specific.

1 - 4 HQ (restriction: Must be Sorcerers)
2 - 10 Troops (restriction: CSM can be chosen, but Rubrics must be your mandatory choices).
0 - 3 Elites
0 - 1 FA (All is dust! Nothing fast!)
0 - 3 Heavy Support

Command Benefit: The Sorcerer Commands - as long as a Sorcerer is in a squad of Rubrics, you can ignore the Slow & Purposeful special rule and replace it with Relentless special rule.
 

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However, I feel that it's 'cheating' considering all of the options already available with Formations, Detachments, etc.
This is bull. There's 4/5 young players getting into the game at my club that have no option but Unbound for them to get into the game and learn the rules at this point for their collections. They aren't cheaters, and Unbound is a perfectly valid part of the rulebook. I like list building more and will always prefer fitting things into whatever FOC because I enjoy the challenge, but that attitude is lame. Why ya gotta rain lameness on people that just want to put models on the table? Sure you can abuse it but there's just as much abuse of formations/detachments, otherwise there wouldn't be so many rules at tournaments for how you're allowed to build your army.

Sorry man, I like you and respect your opinion on things but I had to respond to it this time. Anyway,

I agree with @Khorne's Fist, the only thing an army needs is a leader (though at the same time I feel like I could have a lot of fun playing an army without one). GW is already shitting out formations and new FOCs for each army, I was thinking about getting jealous of all the SM/Necron love from GW over this compared to my BA that got released a few months back but then I remembered the whole Shield of Baal campaign that has a bunch of options for us to roll with. The only shame is that the Fast Attack formation that would allow a lot of players to use their 5th edition Codex forces is a Flesh Tearers detachment. Not something I care about, but for those who suffer from mild to extreme nerd-rage and have ideas of 'right' and 'wrong' with regards to fluff might be more upset.

Ultimately the thing that has the ability to attract me to a specific formation isn't the unit choices (because I would always rather figure that out myself) but the special rules that make the army that little bit more unique. My BA have the Red Thirst from basically every detachment option and Necrons have Reanimation Protocol buffs from the Decurion and Mephrit detachments, what more could a guy ask for? However, since we're building FOC's here:

Blood Angels (Red Thirst, army wide +1 Initiative on the charge):

2 HQ (1 compulsory)

6 Elites

4 Fast Attack (2 compulsory)

4 Heavy Support

1 Lord of War
 

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What a load of horseshit. "cheating"?

It's in the fucking rules. People say it's cheating because you can spam units without needing to take a unit tax, but if you think that people who take 4 CAD's with Wraithknights in place of 5 Wraithknights are any better than people taking 5 wraithknights, you need to reevaluate.
This isn't the first time I've gotten shit from you about this Vaz. I'm done.
@ntaw - thanks for at least being polite about it.
 

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Like it's been said before on this forum: what's a discussion without dissenting opinions? :drinks:

Without dragging this through the mud (and feel free to PM me if this is derailing the thread), I'm curious as to why you think Unbound is cheating when there's equal amounts of abuse in Bound armies. I mean, if we can take pretty much anything we want in formations and they get sweet special rules, and Unbound is basically the same without all those extra bonuses...doesn't that kind of make a Bound army of Formations (potentially) vastly more effective? I would expect 'cheating' to create auto-win situations but can see more options for those from Formations than by playing Unbound.
 

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I'm boring, I'd just keep to 5th ed chart but...
Also swaps, I think they really helped you shape your force how you want it.
Like have a captain jump pack make assault marines troops
Have Dante make sanguinary gaurd troops
Astorath makes death company troops
And any others for whatever codex you like...
I feel like this really allowed the army to be how you want it, and still 'taxed' you for doing so, such as who wants a captain? They seem like worse versions of something else in the codex :(
 

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That's called Unbound, and the rules exist for it. However, I feel that it's 'cheating'...
I'm curious as to why you think Unbound is cheating when there's equal amounts of abuse in Bound armies. I mean, if we can take pretty much anything we want in formations and they get sweet special rules, and Unbound is basically the same without all those extra bonuses...doesn't that kind of make a Bound army of Formations (potentially) vastly more effective?
This. You are penalised for going Unbound, so saying it's cheating is a bit OTT.

EDIT: @Vaz, what's a CAD?
 

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I don't mind unbound I mean all the formations GW has released we are pretty much there anyway. I love the old FOC but with all the changes GW has made they should just let you bring whatever as long as it fits in the points range. The thing I hate is allies god that makes me hate this game. Every army has a built in weakness it is part of the game and part of the fun was winning despite that weakness. So with allies you can now bring in things to counter the weakness in your army. This was a horrible idea. A better thing would have been to give different HQ's abilities that make the army better or turn certain elites or heavies into troops. It would have made the game way more interesting. I think anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
While I do not mind the stimulating conversation that is happening regarding the use of Unbound armies, or the use of allies in an army.

However THIS thread is NOT designed to the place for it to be held. Please create your own thread about such topics.
 

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Regular CAD.

Space Marines:
Calgar: Moves Honour Guard from slotless one-per-HQ to Troops.
Lysander: Moves TH/SS Terminators from Elites to Troops.
Kantor: Moves Sternguard from Elites to Troops.
Shrike: Moves Assault Marines from Fast Attack to Troops. Vanguard may be taken as Elites and Troops. Captains with Jump Packs allow one unit of Assault Marines to be brought as Troops.
Khan: Moves Bikers from Fast Attack to Troops. Biker Captain allows one unit of Bikers to be brought as Troops.
Master of the Forge: Dreadnoughts of any type can be taken as Heavy Support as well as Elites.
Tigurius/Loth/any other named Chief Librarian: Librarians may be taken as Elites as well as HQ.

Chaos Space Marines:
Abaddon: Moves Chaos Terminators (not Justaerin) and Chaos Chosen, with VotLW, from Elites to Troops.
Marked Lord (Sorceror for Tzeentch): Moves their given Cult Troop from Elites to Troops.
Dark Apostle: Moves Possessed from Elites to Troops.
Warpsmith: Heldrakes, Maulerfiends, Forgefiends, Defilers and Helbrutes may be taken as Elites as well as their original Battlefield Role.
Lord with Jump Pack: Moves Raptors from Fast Attack to Troops.

Orks:
Ghazghkull: Moves Meganobz and Nobz from Elites to Troops.
Warboss on Bike: Moves Warbikers from Fast Attack to Troops.
Zagstruk: Moves Stormboyz from Fast Attack to Troops.
Big Mek: Deff Dreads and Killa Kanz may be taken as Troops, but do not count towards the minimum requirement of 2 Troops units.
Mad Dok Grotsnik: Allows Painboyz to be taken as Elites (1-3 per slot, but functioning independently).

Eldar:
Autarch may take a Path (giving him the wargear options and special rules of one given type of Exarch plus his own special rules and Forceshield at appropriate points costs): Moves units of that Aspect to Troops, but do not count towards the minimum requirement of 2 Troops units.
Spiritseer: Moves Wraithguard and Wraithblades to Troops.

Dark Eldar:
Haemonculus: Moves Wracks to Troops.
Lelith Hesperax: Moves Hekatrix Bloodbrides and Reaver Jetbikes to Troops (if Bloodbrides are still a thing that exist).
Archon may take a Skyboard to move Hellions from Fast Attack to Troops.

Grey Knights:
Draigo: Moves Paladins from Elites to Troops. Grand Masters can bring a single unit of Paladins as Troops.
Crowe: Moves Purifiers from Elites to Troops.

Tyranids:
Tervigon: One Tervigon may be taken as a Troops unit per unit of Gaunts in your army.
Deathleaper: Lictors can be taken as Fast Attack as well as Elites.
The Red Terror: Move to HQ as an Independant Character. Raveners move to Troops. Trygons and Mawlocs can be taken as Elites as well as Heavy Support.

Blood Angels:
Dante: Sanguinary Guard may be taken as Troops.
Astorath: Removes limit on Death Company units, and moves them to Troops.
Mephiston: Librarians may be taken as Elites as well as HQ.

Dark Angels:
Azrael: Moves Deathwing Terminators and Ravenwing Attack Squadrons to Troops.
Belial: Moves Deathwing Knights and Deathwing Terminators to Troops. Terminator Captain allows one unit of Deathwing Terminators to be brought as Troops.
Sammael: Moves Black Knights and Ravenwing Attack Squadrons to Troops. Biker Captain allows one Ravenwing Attack Squadron to be brought as Troops.
Ezekiel: Librarians may be taken as Elites as well as HQ.

Space Wolves:
Logan Grimnar: Moves Wolf Guard to Troops.
Harald Deathwolf: Moves Thunderwolf Cavalry and Fenrisian Wolves to Troops. Thunderwolf Lord allows one such unit to be brought as Troops.
Bjorn the Fell-Handed: Dreadnoughts of any type may be taken as Heavy Support as well as Elites.
Njal: Rune Priests may be taken as Elites as well as HQ.

Necrons:
Add Valgul the Flayer Lord: Flayed Ones move to Troops.
Destroyer Lord: One unit of Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers can be brought as Troops.

Imperial Guard:
Lord Castellan Creed: Moves Tempestus Scions to Troops (Kasrkin, bitches!)
Tank Commander: Moves Leman Russ Squadrons to Troops.
 

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Good smattering of FOC swaps. Death Company don't have a unit number restriction anymore but it'd be cool to have them as Troops...even more hilarious that they could get ObSec when you consider how befuddled on the battlefield they used to be.

Another thought I had:

Imperial Guard

2 HQ (one compulsory)

15 Heavy Support (two compulsory)

...because an armoured regiment should have the option of being only Heavy tanks.
 

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Rattlehead
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Good smattering of FOC swaps. Death Company don't have a unit number restriction anymore but it'd be cool to have them as Troops...even more hilarious that they could get ObSec when you consider how befuddled on the battlefield they used to be.

Another thought I had:

Imperial Guard

2 HQ (one compulsory)

15 Heavy Support (two compulsory)

...because an armoured regiment should have the option of being only Heavy tanks.
You can actually bring an Armoured Company in the current ruleset - multiple Steel Host formations, and everyone within 12" of your designated Command Tanks get Preferred Enemy. You have to bring a couple of Hydras, but without infantry to man a Quad-Gun or something it's not too big a problem. Gravy!

The only slight issue is that the reason the Guard exists as Armoured regiments/foot regiments/scout regiments/Imperial Navy is that they were purposefully split up so that one regiment turning traitor couldn't have too big an impact as they're very inflexible; while they remain part of the Imperium, they can use other regiments to cover their weaknesses and create a combined arms approach. Not that tank regiments never take to the field as purely tank regiments, but you might have to explain that to people (some people insist that 'fluff' is a set thing and you can make 'unfluffy' armies, which is bullshit but still a popular misconception).

I dont believe Orks or Blood Angels are fully up to date on your list.
Oh?
 

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You can actually bring an Armoured Company in the current ruleset - multiple Steel Host formations, and everyone within 12" of your designated Command Tanks get Preferred Enemy.
So many detachments and formations in so many places...what's a guy to do! :laugh:
 
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