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hi i use to play Iron warrior in the old codex.
since the new codex came out do it mean the the older rule of siege specialist and replacing 2 fast attack for a extra heavy support all gone with the wind.

thank very for u forwarding reply.
 

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While they aren't mentioned in the codex (well I didn't notice it when i skim read), I don't think that GW is honestly going to get you to repaint all your figs - You can still have 'Iron Warriors', but there aren't any advantages.
 

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Yes the IW super army has finally been nerfed back inline with everyone else.. Nothing stops you from playing your IW painted army as an IW army.. your just a standard Chaos dex army.. kinda like vanilla marines.
 

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Yeah. It seems to me that Thousand Sons have become the new Iron Warriors - everybody hates 'em, Chaos players love them. AP3 Bolters?! Honestly!
 

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Toughness 5 with Feel No Pain is much tougher than the 4+ Inv guys. They even get FNP versus the AP3 Bolters! Plus they will come in with 2 CCW to boot. Did the "Mathhammer" on it and for equal points it takes a squad of Termies with Power Claws to tear them down in HtH. That or starting across the board with 4 Missle launchers, Las Cannons, or Meltas.:angry:
 

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Lesser deamons at nearly half the point cost could do it. overwhelming numbers.
 

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think they ruined the indiviuality with each of the chaos types in the new codex there all the same now :(
or, theyve made all types playable. some of the lists just werent worth playing before, whereas now theyre all similar rules wise, its easy to make an excellently themed, and still very effective list.
 

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I'm not convinced that the loss of flexibility is completely justified....and quite frankly I dont see a Slaanesh army being terribly effective. (yes...its only 1 example...but its a glaring one)

As an Iron Warriors player... yes...they made a lot of my purchases a waste of money, except that now I have that many more Heavy Support choices (oh yay... :( )

I am even more annoyed that now the loyalist marines are superior in almost every way now... they still retain the flexibility of chapter options... still have 5 man troops with a heavy weapon... still have reasonably priced HQ's... (Losing my Leiutenants was especially hard, since they were specially converted.)

so yeah...IW is now just CSM...and CSM just became ordinary...(looks at Basilisk....sigh)

lol

oh well...I guess I have a long wait until this Codex is redone
 

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Loyalist marines are NOT superior in almost everyway..

Lets see... your cheaper for getting Bolt Pistols, Frag and Krack grenades. That alone is a 4 point advantage. In addition you keep your Bolters which means you equal loyal marines for shooting and your better (2 to 1 in most cases) in HtH. Have NINE options for use on your troop options.. NINE! Four of which are fearless! Your Terminators are cheaper and dont suffer the problem of low init due to Power Fists as you come standard with Power Weapons. Your artillary is Str 8 Ap 3 on a dreadnought. Every one of your troops even at base is better than our troops.

I dont ever want to hear people complaing that "Loyalist armies are superior". If anything the Chaos Codexes are superior but you wont hear me complaining about it. I just adapt my tactics and army lists and press on.
 

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It wasn't a complaint... as I have also done exactly that as well. I adapted my Iron Warriors to be able to take on all comers... now a lot of people think IW are not a fair army but I submit that there are a lot of "broken" armies out there.

now as for those other troop choices we have... the faction marines (e.g Berzerkers, K-sons, etc.) there is a significant cost associated with those troops. And I'm certain that there is a chapter trait that could make the regular marines almost as good as Berzerkers (e.g. Furious Charge). BTW...how many points do the loyalist marines pay for TSKNF?...Oh thats right... nothing.

You're right to point out the equipment adds though... but that might have been to give CSM something useful (and for that argument I am only refering to the CSM squads and not the faction marines)

Why should CSM be penalized by having to have 10 man squads before we get a heavy weapon?... It significantly impacts the CSM flexibility... or at least I can't really make the IW fluffy anymore... I absolutely loved the flexibility that 6 squads allowed me (just the troops)... and the faction marines don't even factor in IW fluff.

Now I will say that the Chosen got MUCH spiffier. (Just to show that I'm not just going on some rant here) They are worth every point IMHO. Its a CSM with the Infiltrate trait... absolutely brilliant for GW and CSM. There are quite a lot of nasty combos there... <grimace>

I've never been a real fan of termies due to thier points cost (sink) And that goes for Loyalist or Chaos.

And I prefered my Ordnance to be the S9 AP3 version on the Basilisk. I can't stand the Defiler personally.
 

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i believe that vanilla loyal having assault cannons is better than me having a bolt pistol and frag and krak grenades for 4 points less. lets see who wins assault cannon or boltpistol
 

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Lets compare....

Who wins combat between the unit with 1 attack a piece or the unit with 2 attacks a piece?

The army with the customizability of 9 diffrent troop options or the army with only 2 troop options?

The army with Str 5 Ap4 artillary or the one with Str 8 Ap 3?

Ones who pay 40pts for Terminators or ones who pay 30pts?

Terminators which can use power weapons at Init 4 or ones at Init 1?

The army who can have the same terminator unit armed for both close combat and ranged combat or the army which has to take 2 diffrent units to get the same flexibility?

Terminators who get 2 shots all the time or the ones who get 1 shot and re-rolls misses after 12" and 2 shots re-rolling missess at less than 12"?

The army with 4pts of free wargear that will almost always win HtH or the one who has ATSKNF to keep them from being wiped when they loose combat?

Which would you rather have a cheaper more flexible Land Raider or the more expensive less flexible?

35pt Rhinos or 50pt Rhinos?

A heavy support choice which can take upto 4 heavy or special weapons or one that can only take heavy weapons?

A weapon which can easily light tank hunt from across the board or one which only has a 1 in 6 chance of heavy tank hunting at close range??

An army which has 4 customizable options for all of its infantry choices whether it be troops, jump troops, terminators, elite combat units or the army which can take a trait but has to take some form of disadvantage trait to offset?

The Codex which has very rigid armies with little flexibility or the Codex which gives every army unlimited flexibility through the choices of Icons, Cult troops, or just vanilla troops?

The Codex which limits your special character to only being used in armies over 1500pts and only if you follow their chapter traits or the Codex which lets you use ever character in every game regardless of your chapter, Icons, and army composition.
 

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Lets compare....

Who wins combat between the unit with 1 attack a piece or the unit with 2 attacks a piece?

The army with the customizability of 9 diffrent troop options or the army with only 2 troop options?

The army with Str 5 Ap4 artillary or the one with Str 8 Ap 3?

Ones who pay 40pts for Terminators or ones who pay 30pts?

Terminators which can use power weapons at Init 4 or ones at Init 1?

The army who can have the same terminator unit armed for both close combat and ranged combat or the army which has to take 2 diffrent units to get the same flexibility?

Terminators who get 2 shots all the time or the ones who get 1 shot and re-rolls misses after 12" and 2 shots re-rolling missess at less than 12"?

The army with 4pts of free wargear that will almost always win HtH or the one who has ATSKNF to keep them from being wiped when they loose combat?

Which would you rather have a cheaper more flexible Land Raider or the more expensive less flexible?

35pt Rhinos or 50pt Rhinos?

A heavy support choice which can take upto 4 heavy or special weapons or one that can only take heavy weapons?

A weapon which can easily light tank hunt from across the board or one which only has a 1 in 6 chance of heavy tank hunting at close range??

An army which has 4 customizable options for all of its infantry choices whether it be troops, jump troops, terminators, elite combat units or the army which can take a trait but has to take some form of disadvantage trait to offset?

The Codex which has very rigid armies with little flexibility or the Codex which gives every army unlimited flexibility through the choices of Icons, Cult troops, or just vanilla troops?

The Codex which limits your special character to only being used in armies over 1500pts and only if you follow their chapter traits or the Codex which lets you use ever character in every game regardless of your chapter, Icons, and army composition.
Your forgeting that most new Space Marine Codexs have the 35 pts Rhino, the grenades added in for free, and other things that make them better or worse. Btw your ord. may be weaker, but atleast you get Indirect, we lost that (but got Fleet rule so :p). Personally im not happy with the new Chaos codex. Can you guess why.

BECAUSE I TOO PLAY IW :mad:.

For all the good they did for the codex, they did twice as much in damage :ireful2:.

Oh and your Term's still get TSKNF and Assualt cannons and missile launcher, we get a nerfed Auto Cannon and flamer :(.
 

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New Chaos marines also have free grenades and 35 point rhinos too...and your Vindocators come with free dozer blades. ;-)
 

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Ones who pay 40pts for Terminators or ones who pay 30pts?

Terminators which can use power weapons at Init 4 or ones at Init 1?

The army who can have the same terminator unit armed for both close combat and ranged combat or the army which has to take 2 diffrent units to get the same flexibility?

Terminators who get 2 shots all the time or the ones who get 1 shot and re-rolls misses after 12" and 2 shots re-rolling missess at less than 12"?
Seems like I see a lot of complaints against CSM termies being cheaper, but CSM termies with powerfists cost exactly the same as SM termies but the SM termies get ATSKNF. I'd say storm bolters and twin-linked bolters which can be fired almost like assault weapons are about equal. SM termies are generally shootier, especially because they can take ass cannons. CSM termies are more melee-focused, in many ways because they don't have any good shooty options, but also because they can take an icon of khorne and they can deep strike without error near existing icons on the board.

All in all, I'd say they're fairly balanced, with SM termies somewhat forcing you to take upgrades and being shootier than CSM termies. As far as infantry goes, I'd say being able to take 5man squads with heavy weapons and special morale rules is not quite equivalent to CSM squads that can't take a heavy weapon until they get up to 10 but have twice as many melee attacks. It does make the squads a little unwieldy (losing 9 bolters of shooting to take a shot at a tank is not a good trade if other targets are available). So, SM do shooting better, but CSM do melee much better out of the box. Advantage probably still goes to CSM as far as that goes. All in all I'd say the two are still highly competitive against each other. As far as termies go though, they're pretty even.
 

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Heres the deal with me on Termies. Customizability. Chaos can take them cheaply if they want to. The cheap option comes with a power weapon and TL bolter which means they dont suffer the PF Init 1 that Space Marine Termies come with. Now for 6 points more I can take Grey Knight Termies but thats a seperate codex option. Secondly we have Assualt squads which can only choose LCs or TH/SS combos and we have regular Termies which are PF/SB with 2 being allowed to take special weapons combos. Chaos Termies can mix and match all in one squad to include throwing cheap models in so you have a single squad which can deal with just about anything cheaper than ours. We would have to take 2 squads to match the same options. 2 squads which will are more expensive. Now you can take a Termy cheaper than ours and you can customize them to have more attacks than ours.

Example...
Cheap terminator squad... 300pts for 10 w/ PWs and TL bolters
Equal terminator squad... 400pts for 10 w/PWs and TL Bolters and 1 more attack than non Assualt Termies
Equal terminator squad 400pts for 10 w/2 LCs to equal Assualt Termies
Better terminator squad... 500pts for 10 w/2 LC and 1 more attack than SM termies
Best Terminator squad 530pts for 10 w/2 LC and 2(!) more attacks than SM termies

The squad I would personnally run..
10 Terminators 300pts
2 Autocannons 50pts
2 Chainfists/Champions 50pts
2 LC pairs/Champions 40pts
Icon of Nurgle

Total cost is 480pts for a squad which can do anything. It can take down a monstrous creature, assualt and kill any vehicle, go light vehicle hunting at 48"s, slaughter marines and characters in HtH and to top it off their toughness 5. Good luck killing them.

Same cost for SM squads will get you only dedicated Tank Hunters or dedicated assualt force which will still be worse off. SM Tank killing Termies will have 2 Cyclone ML and Tank hunter which is 2 shots a turn at Str 8 (9 vs vehciles) compared to Chaos's 4 shots at strength 7. Personally I would take the 4 shots over the 2. Better odds at killing monstrous creatures, dreadnoughts, rhinos, landspeeder squadrons, bike squadrons, and just alround better troop killer. On the other hand we can take Assualt Cannons but their only 24 inch range which means we end up having to run all around the board or take a LR which is more expensive than yours.

Lets see Space marines can take Thunder Hammer and Storm shields... well Chaos can take Power Fists and Icon of Tzentch and get a 4+ which is usable ALL the time and not jsut in HtH PLUS they still have TL Bolters to shoot with all for only an average of 3.5pts more a Termie.

You want a true HtH Termy force you can go all Champions with an Icon of Slannesh that will kill our HtH Termies before they even get a chance to attack or if Inititive isnt your think you can go mark of Khorn with 2 LCs on Champions so you get 6(!) attacks on charge per Termy. May be expensive but thats still options SMs dont have.

Dont even get me started on the 5 special weapon weilding Chosen squad you can have. A basically "veteran" squad wher upto 5 can take Plasma or Melta guns and an Icon to boot to make them tougher to kill.

Believe me when I say in the next year as Chaos players learn the true stengths of their codex you will see them come out and start dominating tournaments and games. I believe the only reason they didnt rate higher in this years GD/GT tournaments is because the codex was still fresh and not "broken in" yet. Players are still getting the feel for them. Customizability is key in this game and by essentially doing away with the Legion concept and the "ancient grudge" so everyone can use everything is a very powerfull tool.
 
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