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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just started a chaos army and wanted to know what logic i should follow on ny unit sizes. Should i use the units "magic number" or should i just use common sense or is there another conventional wisdom i should use (points considered of course)?
 

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Here are the unit numbers i usually use, with reasons:

Vanilla CSM: 10
They're comparatively cheap, so fill the unit up to 10 and throw them in a rhino.

Plague Marines: 7
Magic number of Nurgle, and also they're freaking expensive. More is acceptable, but i don't find that the extra bolters benefit me all that much.

Khorne Berserkers: 8
Again, magic number and cost consideration. Plus, anything over 8 tends to overkill like crazy, leaving you vulnerable during the shooting phase.

Noise Marines: 6ish
No personal experience here, but i get the impression that keeping them small and loading them up to the eyeballs with Sonic Blasters is the way to go.

Chosen: 5
Load them up with 5x meltas and go on a suicide run, usually with Outflank/Rhino.

Possessed: 5
Usually don't use this unit, because they're terrible from a competitive/efficiency standpoint. Fun in friendly games or for fluff reasons though.
Anyway, unit of 5 for running about stabbing things alone or to join Kharn in his Land Raider to stab things. WAAAAY too expensive for what they bring to the table.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for the explanations. Any thoughts on tsons or do the other units/cults just out shine them to much
 

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i think 9 is T'sons number just because they are to expencive to run in small squads and 9 gives you alot of AP3 dakka

and anything more then 9 starts to eat at your points significantly
 

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Here are the unit numbers i usually use, with reasons:

Vanilla CSM: 10
They're comparatively cheap, so fill the unit up to 10 and throw them in a rhino.
Reason they are run in squads of 10 is to get the 2nd special weapon.

Plague Marines: 7
Magic number of Nurgle, and also they're freaking expensive. More is acceptable, but i don't find that the extra bolters benefit me all that much.
Main reason is that they are fairly hard to kill, and a small unit of PM's will live longer than a big unit of CSM. Reason to run say 3 squads of 6 rather than 2 squads of 10 is to maximize the number of special weapons and aspiring champions in the army. Personally i like running them in units of 6 in a Rhino.

Khorne Berserkers: 8
Again, magic number and cost consideration. Plus, anything over 8 tends to overkill like crazy, leaving you vulnerable during the shooting phase.
Depends. Id go with 9-10, but if the squad includes a champ with a PF (which it should) then 8-9 is a better number. If you run Kharn in the same unit as them, then 6-7 with a PF champ is enough (assuming they are in a Rhino/LR).

Noise Marines: 6ish
No personal experience here, but i get the impression that keeping them small and loading them up to the eyeballs with Sonic Blasters is the way to go.
5. Always 5. Just give them a Blastmaster and put them in a Rhino. No sonic blasters or champ upgrades.

Chosen: 5
Load them up with 5x meltas and go on a suicide run, usually with Outflank/Rhino.
Pretty much. Melta/Plasma depending on your local metagame.

Possessed: 5
Usually don't use this unit, because they're terrible from a competitive/efficiency standpoint. Fun in friendly games or for fluff reasons though.
Anyway, unit of 5 for running about stabbing things alone or to join Kharn in his Land Raider to stab things. WAAAAY too expensive for what they bring to the table.
I avoid these things like the plague (no pun intended).
My personal opinions are in yellow bold.
 

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Personally, I would run Thousand Sons in groups of 5 (including Sorcerer) With either Doombolt for added fire or Bolt of double rainbows in a rhino. This cuts the cost of the unit, while still letting them be sort of effective. This, of course, makes you rely on the rest of your army to make up for the troops being easily removed, so double princes is almost a Must here, in my opinion.
 

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Personally, I would run Thousand Sons in groups of 5 (including Sorcerer) With either Doombolt for added fire or Bolt of double rainbows in a rhino. This cuts the cost of the unit, while still letting them be sort of effective. This, of course, makes you rely on the rest of your army to make up for the troops being easily removed, so double princes is almost a Must here, in my opinion.
TBH i think if your going to run a squad that small you shouldnt even bother taking them, TS's cost the most points the smaller the squad but eventualy they even out a bit, bigger i would say is better especialy since they have a 4+ invunrible which means they dont even need to hide in cover :3 plus mass S4 AP3 dakka is awsomeness :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
One more question. What about chaos bikers? Are they worth using at all? (maybe like termicide squads?). And for the record i only do casual play so maybe any units work in casual?
 

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Also why is LoS SOO amazing? (no offense to anyone suggesting it. Just nuts how often i see it referenced.
Used with blast templates. Group hug the opponents squads and rain templates on them.

Tear the opponent off their objectives.

Drag the opponent into charge range for 1st turn assaults.

The possibilities are endless.


Obviously with the 5th ed metagame of Mech lists, it has reduced in effectiveness, but is still a competitive option as far as CSM go.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Oooooh ur so right! I didnt think about bunching them up 1st turn assaults. Thanks kingofcheese! And thanks to everyone elses input. (still curious about bikes
 

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Oooooh ur so right! I didnt think about bunching them up 1st turn assaults. Thanks kingofcheese! And thanks to everyone elses input. (still curious about bikes
3 with 2 Melta.
(I think thats legal, might pay to double check your codex)

The other option is running a larger unit with the Icon of Nurgle.

Generally, bikes arent known for their competitiveness.
 

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I ran 8 World Eater bikers in 4th Ed with awesome results. 5th Ed has seen them pretty much neutered with Icons instead of Marks and the loss of Skilled Rider. They can be an awesome CC force with good anti-infantry and mech capabilities with an IoS and Meltaguns plus twin-linked rapid firing bolters. Being relentless with the IoS means you can rapid fire then assualt at Init 5. Very few units in the game can survive 8 bikers tooled up that way. Plus you can get a power fist in there for added tank/MC killing. They're insanely fast too with the ability to get a cover save by moving flat-out. And resilient at T5.

Drawbacks? Big on points and every spot of difficult terrain you encounter can cost you bikers. A smart opponent will place objectives in terrain or hide units in terrain forcing you to make dangerous terrain tests.
 

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The sad fact of the codex is that it is very difficult to see past having two deamon princes with lash of submission as your HQ choice. I have tried my old 4th ED Slanesh lord on a bike but the results where underwhelming. A Khorne Lord on a bike is not so bad but does need the 4th Ed style biker delivery unit. This did work well in 4th Ed but due to the neutered abilities of chaos lords it is much better to look elsewhere.

Back onto subject of squad sizes, I personally would field the following:

Plague Marines: Units of 5 with 2 special weapons. Only look for champion upgrades in large games or if your whjole army is Plague marines.

Noise marines A: 5 marines and a blast master. If there is 10 points knocking about then stick a couple of sonic balsters in.

Noise Marine B: 5 - 6 marines with a champion with Doom siren and either a power weapon or fist. A good assault unit due to the Str 5 AP3 template cutting the chaff down and due to going first in close combat on most occasions.

Khorne Bezerkers A: 5 to 6 with a champion with a power weapon.

Khorn Bezerkers B: 6 to 8 with a champion with a fist.

Thousand Sons: 6 to 8 with a Sorcerer with wind of chaos. Wind of chaos is expensive compared to other powers but is far more useful than doom bolt and bolt of change really is not worth it on a unit that is supposed to kill infantry. Wind of chaos gives these guys a chance against armour 2 and also thins hordes nicely. thousand sons really work best at rapid fire range and in conjunction with a Lash Prince.

All the units should be in a transport to maximise the effectiveness unless they are objective hugging which really should either be Noise marines A or a unit of Plague Marines.

Normal chaos marines are a waste of points compared to these guys whether you give them an Icon or not. The only decent use they have is as a cheap objective holding unit or as a means to pop out a Greater Daemon.

Chosen are good if given 5 special weapons of some description and then put in a rhino but experience has proven that four deepstriking Terminator with combi weapons are better, cheaper and more direct, as well more surviveable especailly when you have some Icons on the table.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
thanks for the tips there lash machine. i'll be sure to get some games in and i guess i'll just have to see how things play out for me. do most people incorperate all the cults in their army or do they pick and choose 2 of them or maybe 3? thats another thing i was wondering, or does it relate mostly to the style you want to play? (which is what i'd think). added note for the games i play as of late: thus far our group isn't into play objective style games as much as simply kill "point" games (not sure what they're typically called) but we prefer to play say 6 or 8 turns and see who's got the most/least points at the end of everything. not sure if this makes a larger differences on whats acceptable in play or not
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Uilleam, thanks to you as well for your 2 cents. i've read constantly that raptors are aweful (or other things outshine them at least) so i was concerned bikers were in the same boat.
 
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