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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Now that Skyfire + Interceptor no longer lets you fire at full BS vs ground targets, is it still worth the 50pts? In particular I'm concerned about 1000pt games as 100pts for an Aegis + Quad-Gun is a significant chunk. I try damn hard to write all comers list so that I can consistently field the same army but the increasing amount of rock paper scissors in 40k is making it very difficult. I mostly try to play Inquisition/IG with CSM allies.

I don't face many fliers personally so the gun would often be dead points. An IG friend always takes at least one Valkyrie. But let's be honest, averaging 1hp a turn vs av12 isn't exactly stellar. And if I roll well, there's now a 4+ jink. I know the Quad-Gun can still shoot skimmers and I often face Dark Eldar, but I consistently lose the quad gun first turn to a single Venom + crew. This forces me to hide it behind LoS blocking terrain, getting little use out of it. So even in 6th, I was considering dropping it from my list.

I see Rhinos, Chimeras and other troop transports making quite a comeback with the buffs to the damage table and objective secured. The Quad-Gun used to be perfect for tearing through light transports but is now reduced to snap shots. It averages 1.22 hits when snap shooting, which is barely more than a bs3 autocannon. When forced to glance these transports to death that damage output is laughable.

So if no Quad-Gun, what are the alternatives? It seems that now the only anti-air that retains its utility vs ground targets are fliers themselves and missile launchers with flakk. Nothing else can fire with full BS vs all targets. I find it impossible to stomach the cost of flakk missiles, especially when lascannons just became much more important for punching through armor. So, am I forced into taking fliers to run a reliable all comers list? I used to do fine at 1000pts with a Vendetta but since their points increase, and the increase to Chimeras, I haven't been able to fit one into my list.

I suppose I could always take Tigurius to try and scrier's gaze a skyfire nexus hahaha.

Joking aside, I know there are other ways to kill fliers. Eldar seems to do alright by massing up twin-linked str6-7 shots. But I'm not quite sure how to do that with IG now that the twin-linked order is gone and prescience is so much harder to get off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
So yep, squeezing a Vendetta into 1k somehow.

I'm not sure how the conversation turned to net listing? Is taking an aegis+quad-gun considered net listing? The comment from @fatmantis to bring the unexpected only enforces the concept that an all comers list is no longer possible. With so much rock paper scissors, a list that forgoes all rock and paper for only scissors (say av14 spam) has the best chance of winning. That is of course unless you face your list's rock. How would playing the game like that be in any way enjoyable when it is decided before you place your army onto the table?

We now must have answers for spam of all kinds, AV14, super-heavies, fliers, wave serpents/rhinos, infantry horde, etc. How is a balanced list supposed to survive in this environment? Given this, there is incredibly few combinations that are even remotely viable without spamming, especially at 1k. The rules seem to be forcing balanced armies to look the exact same, increasing the prevalence of net lists. You must take at least one flier capable of taking out other fliers, you must take a unit or two of melta guns, you must have a large array of str 6-7 shooting for popping transports and then finally something for hordes.

So for IG this would look like:
For Fliers:
Vendetta (Only thing IG owns that is not useless vs ground targets)

For Av14/Superheavies:
Vets w/ melta in Chimera (Scions are too unreliable now that they don't re-roll scatter. Also now that unbound is a thing, compare them to a 2 fusion crisis suit, totally laughable.)

For Hordes:
Wyvrens

For Transports:
Company Command in Chimera/Yarrick in Blob
Autocannons in Infantry Platoons

Can a case be made to take anything else? Above 1k you have a lot more options. Perhaps the Company Command and Infantry Platoons could be replaced with Leman Russ Exterminators. Or loading up on the lascannons. Is the game simply not meant to be played under 1500 points? I certainly feel that this is the case when I attempt to field CSM as there's no way I can fit in answers to everything at 1k.

The last option I can figure to salvage a 1k all comers list is unbound. This would also bring the benefit of getting away from this forced "net list" formula. Replace the veterans with drop podding Grey Hunters with melta guns. Also the Stormtalon seems a much more economical form of anti-flier than the Vendetta. And then Imperial Fist Devastators seem the obvious avenue for lascannons.

With these changes, my 1k list would look something like this:
Company Command: autocannon - 70

Platoon Command: autocannon - 40
Chimera - 65

Inquisitor (Warlord): force sword, bolt pistol - 55
Infantry: autocannon, grenade launcher - 65
Infantry: autocannon, grenade launcher - 65
Infantry: autocannon, grenade launcher - 65

Wyvren - 65

10 Grey Hunters: 2 melta guns, drop pod - 190

Stormtalon: skyhammer - 125

6 Imperial Fist Devastators: 3 lascannons - 144

Aegis - 50
 
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