[NathanJD]

Now that Skyfire + Interceptor no longer lets you fire at full BS vs ground targets, is it still worth the 50pts? In particular I'm concerned about 1000pt games as 100pts for an Aegis + Quad-Gun is a significant chunk. I try damn hard to write all comers list so that I can consistently field the same army but the increasing amount of rock paper scissors in 40k is making it very difficult. I mostly try to play Inquisition/IG with CSM allies.

I don't face many fliers personally so the gun would often be dead points. An IG friend always takes at least one Valkyrie. But let's be honest, averaging 1hp a turn vs av12 isn't exactly stellar. And if I roll well, there's now a 4+ jink. I know the Quad-Gun can still shoot skimmers and I often face Dark Eldar, but I consistently lose the quad gun first turn to a single Venom + crew. This forces me to hide it behind LoS blocking terrain, getting little use out of it. So even in 6th, I was considering dropping it from my list.

I see Rhinos, Chimeras and other troop transports making quite a comeback with the buffs to the damage table and objective secured. The Quad-Gun used to be perfect for tearing through light transports but is now reduced to snap shots. It averages 1.22 hits when snap shooting, which is barely more than a bs3 autocannon. When forced to glance these transports to death that damage output is laughable.

So if no Quad-Gun, what are the alternatives? It seems that now the only anti-air that retains its utility vs ground targets are fliers themselves and missile launchers with flakk. Nothing else can fire with full BS vs all targets. I find it impossible to stomach the cost of flakk missiles, especially when lascannons just became much more important for punching through armor. So, am I forced into taking fliers to run a reliable all comers list? I used to do fine at 1000pts with a Vendetta but since their points increase, and the increase to Chimeras, I haven't been able to fit one into my list.

I suppose I could always take Tigurius to try and scrier's gaze a skyfire nexus hahaha.

Joking aside, I know there are other ways to kill fliers. Eldar seems to do alright by massing up twin-linked str6-7 shots. But I'm not quite sure how to do that with IG now that the twin-linked order is gone and prescience is so much harder to get off.

 

[mayegelt]

Yeah does seem a bit more expensive for what it can do now.
I have completely missed the change to skyfire as well, so that might make a few lists have to be different.

 

[scscofield]

In 6th I felt the ADL w/ QC was a autoinclude for most of my lists. I doubt I will take it much in 7th due to the change to Interceptor.

 

[Words_of_Truth]

I've replaced my aegis with a storm talon for some anti air and ground action, yeah I love the cover but it kind of makes me more proactive than reactive which is more fun.

 

[ntaw]

The changes make the ILC more appealing, but I think I'll stick with my fliers for effective anti air support.

 

[falcoso]

I think it really depends on what set of misssions you are doing. I mean with tacitcal objectives the aegis line is just a waste now, whereas in eternal war in weaker armoured armies the aegis line is a really nice, quad gun or not, depdning on the army I think we will see more comms relays now though

 

[fatmantis]

Haha..this kinda makes me laugh..in a good way...ive always hated the agies...played it maybe once or twice...i never liked the fact it made you a stationary Target..to me it was overrated and autoincluded in way too many lists...it just made people lazy..
and as you stated that now your stumbling to find answers to deal with things...

you are correct there is going to be a major shift back to vehicles..and a i believe a return to melta...my advice to you is to learn to bring the unexpected..too many people copy and past intent lists cause its easy..but it hinders their ability to list build...

be creative...it not all about killing..

 

[falcoso]

you are correct there is going to be a major shift back to vehicles..and a i believe a return to melta...my advice to you is to learn to bring the unexpected..too many people copy and past intent lists cause its easy..but it hinders their ability to list build...

be creative...it not all about killing..

You couldn't be more correct. I mean internet lists are only good against other internet lists, I have played a friend who plays eldar and we realised the other day how similar it is to so many internet lists, yet he rarely wins, he isn't a bad player its juts the lists don't work against our armies

 

[fatmantis]

You couldn't be more correct. I mean internet lists are only good against other internet lists, I have played a friend who plays eldar and we realised the other day how similar it is to so many internet lists, yet he rarely wins, he isn't a bad player its juts the lists don't work against our armies

its probably not that he is/isnt a bad player but more the fact that doesnt understand the tactics behind why the person wrote the list in the first place.

if you didint write the list it may hard for you to figue out the order it should be played in...

that the down side to the whole x vs y argument too...just cuase x works for you doesnt mean y is bad.,

 

[humakt]

Interestingly when it comes to writing lists what is deemed an 'internet' can sometimes be the only available choices to fulfill a specific type of list. Take for instance a mono Nurgle Deamon list.

Once you have taken a great unclean one and a couple of maxed out plague bearers you have very few choices left on the board. The hideously expensive plague drones don't get picked that much because beasts of nurgle are a better choice.

Most armies have such a myrad of choices that unless you are going for a themed army getting an army to suit you play style should be possible after a few battles. It all depends on making the correct sacrifices (is it worth taking the landraider in choice in place of a stormraven for instance).

As for the quad gun. It was too powerful for the points cost but I can still see it being useful for certain armies. Personally I have always preferred the use of flyers for my anti air where available.

 

[Xabre]

This entire thread actually worries me slightly... I think I need to go grab the new book and read up on Skyfire/Interceptor... you're no longer able to choose how it fires? Did Tau running VTs just get hurt also?

An attempt by GW to get fliers in to act as anti-flier?

 

[scscofield]

Interceptor no longer has the bit allowing you to shoot full BS at ground targets. So a Skyfire/ Interceptor weapon can only shoot air targets at full BS and ground targets are snapshots.

 

[Xabre]

Yeah, I just read it. *rips the VT off his Riptide*

So Tau just took a HUGE hit to their anti-air support. Time to start converting a Barracuda!

 

[scscofield]

Eh? You lost me there, the VT allows you to choose if you have Skyfire or not. How does the change to Interceptor effect that?

 

[AwesomusPrime]

Velo Tracker only provided the option to use Skyfire, which was better than the SF/Int combo quad used. Early Warning Override gives Tau interceptor. Tau still get to abuse the system. My Tau liked using the quad gun, and I almost exclusively used it on ground targets, and I just bought a Tau themed one online, so mucho dissapointed.

 

[Xabre]

That was me getting the rules wrong as RAW. I thought the VT would force my Riptides to only snap shot at ground targets, which, for instance, made the Ion templates fail completely.

 

[ntaw]

I agree with the sentiment that the best anti air defense comes from having your own air presence.

 

[NathanJD]

So yep, squeezing a Vendetta into 1k somehow.

I'm not sure how the conversation turned to net listing? Is taking an aegis+quad-gun considered net listing? The comment from @fatmantis to bring the unexpected only enforces the concept that an all comers list is no longer possible. With so much rock paper scissors, a list that forgoes all rock and paper for only scissors (say av14 spam) has the best chance of winning. That is of course unless you face your list's rock. How would playing the game like that be in any way enjoyable when it is decided before you place your army onto the table?

We now must have answers for spam of all kinds, AV14, super-heavies, fliers, wave serpents/rhinos, infantry horde, etc. How is a balanced list supposed to survive in this environment? Given this, there is incredibly few combinations that are even remotely viable without spamming, especially at 1k. The rules seem to be forcing balanced armies to look the exact same, increasing the prevalence of net lists. You must take at least one flier capable of taking out other fliers, you must take a unit or two of melta guns, you must have a large array of str 6-7 shooting for popping transports and then finally something for hordes.

So for IG this would look like:
For Fliers:
Vendetta (Only thing IG owns that is not useless vs ground targets)

For Av14/Superheavies:
Vets w/ melta in Chimera (Scions are too unreliable now that they don't re-roll scatter. Also now that unbound is a thing, compare them to a 2 fusion crisis suit, totally laughable.)

For Hordes:
Wyvrens

For Transports:
Company Command in Chimera/Yarrick in Blob
Autocannons in Infantry Platoons

Can a case be made to take anything else? Above 1k you have a lot more options. Perhaps the Company Command and Infantry Platoons could be replaced with Leman Russ Exterminators. Or loading up on the lascannons. Is the game simply not meant to be played under 1500 points? I certainly feel that this is the case when I attempt to field CSM as there's no way I can fit in answers to everything at 1k.

The last option I can figure to salvage a 1k all comers list is unbound. This would also bring the benefit of getting away from this forced "net list" formula. Replace the veterans with drop podding Grey Hunters with melta guns. Also the Stormtalon seems a much more economical form of anti-flier than the Vendetta. And then Imperial Fist Devastators seem the obvious avenue for lascannons.

With these changes, my 1k list would look something like this:
Company Command: autocannon - 70

Platoon Command: autocannon - 40
Chimera - 65

Inquisitor (Warlord): force sword, bolt pistol - 55
Infantry: autocannon, grenade launcher - 65
Infantry: autocannon, grenade launcher - 65
Infantry: autocannon, grenade launcher - 65

Wyvren - 65

10 Grey Hunters: 2 melta guns, drop pod - 190

Stormtalon: skyhammer - 125

6 Imperial Fist Devastators: 3 lascannons - 144

Aegis - 50

 

[friar76]

It is a problem I agree with @NathanJD, a net list is not gospel. Something that works for me will not necessarily work for you. It is about finding a tactic that works for you most of the time.

Personally I still take quad guns. I have gone off my fliers somewhat for more objective contesting units on the ground. It is still funny to see a vendetta fall groundward fro interceptor fire onto its own army. Not so funny if it lands on yours however. The ILC is good if you want a clean kill, but with the changes to the damage table this can still be an issue. IMO you can have as much joy with the quad gun in this situation.

The 'to unbound or not to unbound' is a big issue at my club. Some individuals love to 'mix it up', bringing wholly mechanised forces to try and wipe their opponents off the board, others to flood the area with troops and high-end weaponry. It is a matter of ethics in the end. Some people love the strategy of the game; others simply want to destroy everyhting in their path.

Regarding the limit of 1k games, either a flier or ADL are good, but depends on your method of war. Either you can sit on an objective in your deployment zone, avoiding all shooting attacks until in range of your weapons, or leave it at home, zooming fliers around making most of the air superiority (if any)

Either way it is up to the individual which theme works best and under what circumstances.

Sorry to be ambiguous but theres by two cents :good: