Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 20 of 51 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,175 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I've heard complaints here and there, but I'd like to take it a step further. The sixth spell of Death Lore: 'Purple Sun of Xereus' ruins games. It can reduce even the largest, most promising battle down to a small handful of dice rolls.

Take my first game at Ard Boyz this weekend. I play Ogres and my opponent plays Dark Elves. I know going in that Ogres (although better now) still aren't a top tier army, so I'm probably just playing for fun.

The game starts, we get into position, we trade initial blows and prepare for close combat. All in all, it looks like it's going to be an interesting and fun game that can easily go either way.

Then he casts Purple Sun. He rolls all the dice he has in his pool, and gets two 6's. I have no way in my list (or army) of preventing it. He rolls a 9 (the average roll) and it lands in the front line of my 2nd most expensive unit, killing two of my four characters, including my lvl 4 wizard.

I try to shrug it off and readjust my strategy, only to have the purple sun slam into my most expensive unit (containing my Lord) the next magic phase. I try to dispel it with all the power dice in my pool, but fall short by 1. The next magic phase, it completely engulfs my main unit, and I concede.

I don't mind powerful magic, but when even a beginner can roll a small handful of dice and beat any player on the planet, then the spell is broken. Granted, it could have backfired on him, but that didn't stop him from taking 2nd at the tournament, mainly from exploiting that single spell.

What do you think?
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
6,544 Posts
Sounds a little like sour grapes to me. But I don't necessarily disagree with you, either. Some of the magic in the new rulebook is extremely powerful. A lot of the skill involved in the magic phase seems to have disappeared, because players realize that you can just roll six dice no matter what level wizard you are, get a miscast/irresistible force, and throw some game-winning spell at their opponent. Magic has become entirely a function of dice, rather than player decision, I think-- purely because of how the Winds of Magic works. The defending player is going to have enough dispel dice, no matter what, really, to stop stuff that isn't irresistible; and the casting player is most likely going to have enough dice to at least throw the big spell and look for the two sixes.

GW clearly designed it that way, too-- case and point, look at Lore of Life. That spell list encourages you to throw as many dice as you can at things, and even accounts for damage the wizard might take from miscasts by either negating it or healing the wounds later.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,175 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I like to think it wasn't just frustration with losing. Hell, I played Ogres in 7th edition, I'm used to that. ^_^ If it's sour grapes, it's not really over losing (I know the opponent and he's actually a very good player), it's over not being able to play out the game. I had to kill almost 2 hours before the next round began, for Christ's sake.

What really frustrated me is that it could've been a really fun and engaging battle, but instead it was decided by a small handful of dice that any player (or their pet monkey) could've rolled and won with.

An extra problem is the spell, as random as it may be, is clearly worth the risk. There is a possibility of it backfiring horribly, but odds are it will only damage your opponent, and in some situations, completely cripple him. In order for it to truly backfire, they would have to either roll a misfire (1 in 6 chance) or roll a 4 or less on 3d6 movement distance (another 1 in 6 chance).

So instead of a flip of a coin, it's more like a roll of a d6:

1: you lose two units close to your caster.
2: you lose most or all of one unit close to your caster.
3: it does nothing.
4-5: your opponent loses a unit close to a spot of your choice.
6: your opponent loses two units close to a spot of your choice.

All in all, I'm not saying it isn't a fair spell, as it is a very difficult spell to cast, it can backfire horribly, and you usually have to suffer a miscast to cast it (it reduced the caster in our game to a 0 lvl caster, effectively taking him out of the game), but it reduces what could have been a great game to a small handful of dice rolls. After all the time and effort it took to set up (it was the random deployment mission), it just made the whole experience seem like a waste.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,190 Posts
I was talking about this with my gaming group the other day and basically my point of view is "It might happen. There is a much larger chance that it won't."

To illustrate a few examples:

The second game I played with my Dark Elves in the new edition, I took Purple Sun on my Level 4 Sorc, and cast it on turn 2. I rolled a Misfire and then a 6 for her initiative test, she promptly died, leaving me with ~1500pts vs my opponenents 2000pts.

The third game I played, I managed to cast it without mishap, and it then spent the rest of the game zigzagging back and forth in front of the enemy without ever touching his units.

The fourth game it ate about half a unit of Ironbreakers, which was nice, but not gamebreaking at the time.

Due to a combination of factors, magic has become a lot more unreliable than it was previously. I've played games where I've had 5 dice at most during all of my own turns, and been unable to get a meaningful cast off. I've also played games where I got 12 dice twice in a row and cast every spell I had.

I have similar examples from my WoC with Gateway, but I think you get the gist. Sometimes you get a silly silly phase, and it wins you the game. Other times it can fail totally right when you need it.

My point is that this is no different to anything else in the game. A bad double 6 can always screw you over (whether it's a gateway cast or a break test), and the misfire dice is nobodies friend. A Hellblaster can either munch its way through unit after unit, or it can explode on turn 1 depending on how the dice feel.

I'm sure we can all come up with an example of unlucky scenarios that we've seen/encountered, but at the end of the day it's just a result of rolling dice to win games. Sometimes they just refuse to work. I don't think complaining about Purple Sun is any more productive than complaining about Cannon or Stone Throwers or Terror, and I don't think any of them ruin the game in general. However, occasionally, they might ruin one or two games that otherwise would have been close.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Sadly there's not much you can do, that's just the new magic of the edition. Purple Sun is a impressive Spell especially with Irresistible force but I seen it backfire enough to not be worried. Lore of Death is Indeed a powerful Lore but I feel Purple Sun isn't the best spell from it, I lost more due to Doom and Darkness and Fate of Bjuna then to Purple Sun. Just gotta keep on trucking and find away around powerful magic :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
630 Posts
Purple sun is an initiative test, that means that it depends who they're using it against, if they use it against chaos/elves it will do very little and be quite unlikely to effect any characters (barring bad luck).

It just really sucks for you as ogres, as the spell is especially effective versus your army.

I definately agree with you on magic though, in this edition it takes no skill, people just throw 6 dice at every spell and guarantee a powerful cast. Removing the double 1 really made magic a very low risk option. Previously the double 1 issue made it risky to do this, now there's no risk, just throw all of your dice in.
 

·
WFB Moderator
Joined
·
8,248 Posts
I hate coming up against the lore of death with my ogres too- there really is nothing you can do to prevent a purple sun from wiping out the majority of a unit.

As for THoH saying that its easy for a defender to dispel it I can't say Ive seen that born out in 8th. A lot of the time we see 5-7 power dice with 3-4 dispel dice... a level 4 should be able to cast the higher purple sun with that, and is almost certain to get the smaller one... while if the defender doesn't have either a Lv4 or a scroll the spell is going to go through (even with a lv4 its unlikely they'll stop it)... but it is always fun getting a double 6 when you have almost no dice left.

I think that the ogres will do better after the new army book is released (hopefully early next year).... I expect we'll new banners that protect from characteristic tests (or give some sort of bonus/save to them) as well as hopefully being able to take both more magical banners and on more units (currently ogres can have 1 <25pt banner on ironguts and 1 of any points on the BSB... thats it for the entire army, no matter how big a game it is).

Then again its not just ogres that have to worry about purple sun- its has the ability to trounce dwarves, lizards, nurgle daemons and to a certain extent VC in a single pass (its nasty for other armies, but about right for what it costs to cast). Then again I would say ogres are the most vulnerable of those. With I2 core, I3 characters and an I4 general they'll fail a lot of 'I' tests and then the fact of them having many wounds is irrelevant as they just straight die (plus at least 3 roles for more PD per model failed).
It just means that those armies have something of an auto-loss button built in if they start running anything that looks remotely like a deathstar, and since a hoard of ogres is about the only thing I can do to counter massive hoards from other armies (other then multiple scraplaunchers.. which Im not going to do).
 

·
WFB Moderator
Joined
·
8,248 Posts
sure, but thats ok- that requires 2 mages, both to roll the right spells, then they need to manage to cast both. A nice big combination like that requires some skill, some planning and a nice helping of luck to get going (spread through several dice roles).
On the other hand purple sun can end the game with 1 spell, which is a little harsh when it doesnt require any skill or planning.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,830 Posts
Unfortunately, it's not the fault of the spell. Theres a 50%+ chance of most armies surviving- combined with the initial dispel chance and the RiP dispel, there's a reasonable chance of stopping it with most up to date armies.

Compare that to Ogres, and Dwarves, and it's a nuke - but they're out of date, requiring defensive magic - of which defensive magic being a couple of additional dispel dice is not up to the scratch of what current 8th Edition Magic is.



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3
 

·
WFB Moderator
Joined
·
8,248 Posts
Yeah, the grand total of ogre's magic defence is the rune maw, the greatskull and 1-3 gnoblar thiefstones (but since the common MR talismans from the rulebook are the same price they arent exactly special)... and a grand total of none of those have any effect whatsoever on purple sun or pit of shades... the 2 spells that, not only can but should, cripple ogres in 1 casting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
736 Posts
I have read everyones responses with some interest and note peoples concerns with Magic. However I don't see Purple Sun as the be all and end of the magic phase as some people seem to think. However it is a powerful weapon.... but like most editions of Warhammer those who control the magic phase, tend to control the game. (thats my personal opinion since 2nd edition)

1). Why are people so upset with Purple Sun?

Purple Sun is available to a LOT of lists.... anyone who is facing an empire, dark elf, chaos, whoever else can take the list should be thinking what if...... especially with magic. Each race has an item or items that are capable of getting rid of the spell at least once, from a dispel magic scroll, through to an Icon for Empire, A shard here or there etc. (Admitedly IF makes it rather more murky). If your planning your lists before a battle, why would you not even in friendly games have a way to shut down magic or at least be able to throw stuff at your opponent to even the playing field? All the lists I read online are rarely considerate of this. Its almost as if IF has made everyone say... well cant stop you........ end of game after that purple sun goes off or whatever goes off. People who are still playing death star units or placing all their hopes on that killer crusher unit are asking for Purple Sun to be cast at it. In most games of 2.4k or above you have several choices for core, special etc. Reliance on one large block of forces is going to cost you if the enemy has taken enough magical firepower. The answer is to change how your playing and what your force consists of rather than lament the loss of your 50000000 strong dwarf regiment. (which is asking for the juciest biggest spell that can be thrown at you).

2). Give as good as you get. Most lists (albiet dwarves struggle). Are capable of fielding strong magic, so if your opponent starts relying on it to wipe you out think of counter strats or if you can't stop him wiping out your large spear block.... then wipe out his! I loathe as a DE player coming up against Lizards for this very reason, they give as good as they get. Even a humble Empire army can deal massive damage to anyone with Magic and keep people on the backfoot.

3). Invest in protection. At the moment, as 8th unfolds, too many lists are being tooled to kill..... not to protect. The biggest learning of 40k was TLOS and protecting your forces for 5th edition for a lot of people and making redudencies built into lists. I rarely see here on other forums, anything that consititutes a defensive unit or a strategy of WHAT HAPPENS WHEN DEATH STAR TAKES A MASSIVE MAGIC HIT?

If your empire are you putting a unit of handgunners there to protect your warmachines?
If your DE are you protecting your Hyrdra or COK or are you too busy throwing harpies at enemy war machines?
If your HE are you investing in enough figures to take the fight across the board if you happen to suffer enough losses to shooting?
If your chaos, have you tooled your lords to ensure you can reach the enemy?


That all said, yes Purple Sun is a powerful tool when used right..... but its no worse than the dreaded 13th spell for example which is one of my pet hate spells I go all out to destroy.

Magic is now a viable kill strat..... people need to consider that when designing their forces. Purple Sun can kill those 50 dark elf warriors, 50 dwarves, 50 lizards, 50 empire state troopers regiments.... so the answer..... dont put all your eggs in one basket. After its cast once with IF.... hopefully the enemy has taken some sort of Magical backlash.... make your opponent think...... a level 4 wizard with a power scroll is about 250 points...... he/she needs to make this back and do more dmge to you with it, to make it worthwhile, in case they end up blowing themselves to kingdom come. So why is everyone presenting 300-500 point strong units that are screaming target me! Or at least thinking..... well that lord better take some magic defence if I am going to take that 500 point uber unit....

If i had a spell I HATE..... its the damned 13th spell! Ugh i hate that thing!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its even harder to kill the caster than most Purple Sun casters too.

Alexi.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
630 Posts
Purple sun is an initiative test, if you're a dark elf player you shouldn't even care if they cast it, you lose a spearman on a 6....who cares? Fireball spell is about as effective against 20 spearmen and a lot easier to counter.

You only really care about those 'doom' spells, if you're death-staring, and if that's the case, then you probably deserve to lose the game because of one spell.

There are precautions you can take to stop those spells, even as ogres:

Feedback scroll (guarantee he does it once often)
Hellheart
Give your lord an initiative 10 weapon
Give your caster an initiative potion the turn before charge (so he can be certain to survive one casting of it, as initiative is your weakness stat wise).

Spread your points of characters out.....
Instead of a level 4, have 3 level 2's for example
Instead of a lord, have heroes, ogre heroes themselves tend to trounce most lords.

The issue I see, is that lists in 8th (in general) are built like lists in 7th. It's possible to have lots of heroes and lords now, capitalise on that and get cheap lords, rather than fully decked out and have many heroes, spread the units/damage around.

Your lord is easily viable with a great weapon alone, able to trounce most enemies with JUST that and the big name....
 

·
WFB Moderator
Joined
·
8,248 Posts
Purple sun is an initiative test, if you're a dark elf player you shouldn't even care if they cast it, you lose a spearman on a 6....who cares? Fireball spell is about as effective against 20 spearmen and a lot easier to counter.

You only really care about those 'doom' spells, if you're death-staring, and if that's the case, then you probably deserve to lose the game because of one spell.

There are precautions you can take to stop those spells, even as ogres:

Feedback scroll (guarantee he does it once often)
doesnt stop the spell, lords should survive it- less then 20% of taking 3 wounds even on a 6 dice casting- but even if you did die the purple sun could still easily take between 2-800pts worth of ogres in a single pass
Hellheart
doesnt stop the spell and is unlikely to kill the wizard. A 1-2 means he's dead or not a mage, a 3 might kill him if you are lucky and a 4+ is ignorable...I would risk that
Give your lord an initiative 10 weapon
gold sigil sword and cathayan longsword only work in combat... they have no effect against characteristic tests... so you might be I10, but still fail vs purple sun on a 5+
Give your caster an initiative potion the turn before charge (so he can be certain to survive one casting of it, as initiative is your weakness stat wise).
ok, so he might survive (33% the chance of dying) but if I was casting purple sun I would just aim elsewhere... but even then a 17% chance of killing a 2-300pt character is well worth trying, add in the collateral you'll get and its still an awesome spell.

Spread your points of characters out.....
Instead of a level 4, have 3 level 2's for example
Never going to happen. I might take a butcher instead of a slaughtermaster.. but they arent that much cheaper and that just sacrifices +2 to cast/dispel on everything in the game (including against purple sun). I dont see the point of taking 2 butchers, in 2.5k games I might take a butcher to back up a slaughtermaster... the other important thing about this though is that for the +70pts to get a slaughtermaster you dont just get +2 to dispel but you also start with +1I
Instead of a lord, have heroes, ogre heroes themselves tend to trounce most lords.
Bruisers can beat almost anything... but you dont take a tyrant to kill things (although he really does), you take him for the Ld bonus he gives you (and if I could spend another +70pts and have a Ld10 ogre I would do it). Again a tyrant gives you +1I, and you really dont want the general dying because then you have the Ld7 bulls/butcher struggling to pass any tests, and have given away the +100Vp for the general

The issue I see, is that lists in 8th (in general) are built like lists in 7th. It's possible to have lots of heroes and lords now, capitalise on that and get cheap lords, rather than fully decked out and have many heroes, spread the units/damage around.
ogres dont do cheap... you're looking at ~145pts for a hero with no magical items. Basically they can afford a general, a caster and mebbe a BSB if you stretch... then a back up caster in big games, but spare combat characters are almost never going to be seen.
Your lord is easily viable with a great weapon alone, able to trounce most enemies with JUST that and the big name....
win yes, survive possibly, break doubtful. It costs a lot to make him survivable... and none of the big names are very good. mawseeker is the best, but being stupid Ld9 is a bit risky.
So while they sound like good suggestions in practice I doubt many of them would actually work all that well... and those that make a little bit of an imporvement (like just taking a hero general and caster to save points) make both more vulnerable and mean you've just lost a massive bonus in every game you play... I refuse to tailor my lists to individual enemies so I would be down to a permanent Ld8 and would have -2 to cast/dispel off every casting/dispelling attempt in every game... which doenst sound like a good idea.

The best defense here is probably the feedback scroll and hellheart (although not both- being arcane means I could only take 1... or I would need to spend an extra 180pts to take the second).... but then it would be psychology not effect that protects (which would mean you need to let slip you have a feedback scroll). Very few people risk casting when a hellheart is in effect... fear means they just dont roll more then 1 dice per spell... but I recon quite a few people would ignore the risks if the ogres were in a position to charge (if the mage is going to die in the combat anyway...)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,314 Posts
Along with Dwellers from Below, Purple Sun is absolutely brutal in the right situation. I like to take Life myself with a Lvl 4 and Lvl , the Lvl 2 having the Potion Sacre. With that combination of Casters it's very likely I'll get Dwellers on the Lvl 2 and she can suicide cast Dwellers on people. Teclis is S2, poor Teclis.

These spells are just unfairly powerful against some armies, Purple Sun against Orges especially. That and the fact you can effectively force the Spell of your choice on the Caster of your choice makes it very harsh indeed. I think it would be better all round if you could take Ward Saves against spells which remove you from play.

Aramoro
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,697 Posts
The purple sun is only game breaking against ogres and as much as I like playing my ogres they're not a common/ popular army and are desperately due an update.
Dwarf armys can shut down magic with ease, Undead can either raise back what was killed or dominate the magic and shut down/ kill the caster the only other low init army I can think of is lizardmen and they have access to the slann which can do enough damage on its own. Most other armies have either high init so ignore psoz or they're well protected in the magic phase or so cheap it doesn't matter.
 

·
WFB Moderator
Joined
·
8,248 Posts
Yeah, its a little unfair that you can bascially ensure that you cast the spell you want whenever you want it cast. For 483 points I caa field 2 Lv3 spellweavers for my WE army and both can take life (the suicide can get a elven steed and a power scroll)- the one with no equipment roles first and is she gets dweller's she changes it to earthblood, the second then is almost assured to have dwellers (in order not to the first mage must have rolled it, changed to earthblood and then the second rolled the perfect option to get the other 3 spells). If I have first turn I can use my vanguard move, followed by a march to move the suicide mage 30" before the magic phase. Then as long as I get a total of 5-6 dice its incredibly unlikely that I would fail to get an irrisistable dwellers... with enough range to hit any unit on the board.
- if you are playing Teclis against that you better hope he is in a unit with the banner of the world dragon... otherwise its basically like a 60-65% chance that he's dead turn 1 (I need to get the dice).

Someone who either knew they were playing against ogres/dwarves/lizardmen could do something similar with death- if they go first their suicide flies/marches on the fastest cheap mount they can get, and then sends a purple sun down the enemy batteline before they even get the chance to move (if you go second hide the mage and do the same thing- against ogres that'll mean more may very well die). The only hope the enemy would have would be either you roll too few dice or you got a misfire... but almost 5/6 the purple sun would smash through their army and tear the heart out of them. The the mage would quite probably survive (and ogres especially would have a problem getting to and killing that mage in a single turn (i f they are M8-9 or flying it would be difficult for ogres to kill that mage full stop).


And as for power scroll + 13th spell... just dont even suggest it
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,175 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
I agree with Tim/Steve on all points. Feedback scroll doesn't help because no save of any kind is allowed against Purple Sun. The initiative 10 sword only works for attacks, not characteristic tests. Otherwise units with great weapons would be nearly impervious to strength tests.

Ogres are definitely the army that's hardest hit by Purple Sun, as they're the only army with both a low initiative and a low model count. Still, any army that relies heavily upon 1-2 units is going to find purple sun game breaking, especially at lower point levels.

As a side note, I'm nowhere as afraid of Dwellers Below. Honestly, I could've lost one of my two main units, and half the characters in my list, and still been able to finish out the game. I probably would not have won in that case (a draw would've definitely been possible, especially since my opponent's main wizard was neutralized), but the game would have definitely continued.

The Purple Sun sank itself into the ranks of my most expensive units three turns in a row, literally destroying over half the points in my army by the first half of turn 3. A single spell should not be able to do that to anyone, not when you can throw all your dice at it, and virtually guarantee irresistible force, leaving your opponent no possible way to counter it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
630 Posts
So far I'm not a big fan of how irresistible force and miscasts work. To be frank, I think the whole irresistible force thing should've been dropped, just leaving it at base values, with three 1's causing a miscast. The miscast table isn't as bad as it seems compared to the actual casting power of magic itself.

I do agree that purple sun is highly situational, my daemons laugh at it, my undead don't care and my chaos laugh also.

As a side note for someone too lazy to look it up, do you get look out sir from the purple sun? As far as I was aware as a template you do, am I wrong?
 
1 - 20 of 51 Posts
Top