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The Emperor Protects
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Ok, played a pretty big game the other week, and this issue has been argued pretty fiercely between the group of friends who I played the battle with.

In the game, our opponent (Chaos), charged a unit of Deathknights with Belial in it. Now Belial was now T5 from being in base contact with two of his terminators. The Chaos Lord issues a challenge, but wasn't in base contact with Belial or his unit. Belial, wasn't actually in base contact with any enemy, the two terminators either side of him, were each in base contact with one enemy model. So he argued, that since he couldn't move his Lord into base contact with Belial by swapping any units, Belial had to come out from the back of his unit, and into the enemy unit, to be in base contact with the Chaos Lord. Which in turn brought him out of his unit, losing the T5 from Fortress of Shields.

The rule is pretty all over the place in the codex. But it seems like an odd one, which didn't quite seem right

D = Deathknights. B = Belial. T = Chaos Terminators. L = Chaos Lord. Ignore the full stops. Was kind of like this....

At the start, before challenge is called:

...DD.B.DD
.....D..D....
....T....T
..T.T.C.T.T

Then after challenge, he declared it would have to go down like this.

.DD..DD
...D..D
..T....BT
.T.T.C.T.T

Three of us are pretty new back into 40k, where as he hasn't been out of it at all. So in the end we couldn't be bothered to argue it.

Thoughts?
 

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Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges.

...

Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges.
Under "Issuing a challenge" and "Accepting a Challenge", mate. It seems like issuing a challenge happens prior to Pile In because;

"Furthermore, neither the characters in the challenge nor the models that have made way to allow the characters to get into base contact make a Pile In move when their Initiative step is reached."

It isn't really clear what happens when the two Pile In's occur due to Start of Initiative Pile In occuring at the same time; as in that case, he would have been forced (you MUST pile in, and Player whose turn it is, i.e Chaos players in this instance, as he charged) to pile in, then you would have done.

However,

Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase, before any blows are struck.
Suggests that it's before any start of Initiative Pile Ins, and it's how we play, but depending on your opponents desire to force it, he may force it to a roll off.

We have quite a fair bit of challenges in our gaming group due to the number of Emperor's Children and Imperial Fists 30K players, particularly the Fists who get a similar Shield Toughness rule, and many people trying to challenge shield without the need for having challenge meat feeders.



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You can just swap the model in the challenge with another friendly one in base to base contact, in this instance Belial swaps with a DWK in front, and the Chaos Lord swaps with one of the Terminators in front. Base contact is maintained with all models necessary for the T5 special rule DWK have. Not to mention the challenger moves to the challengee and not the other way around. Reference page 102, Fighting A Challenge:

If possible, swap the challenger for a friendly model in base contact with the challengee. If this cannot be done, swap the challengee for a friendly model in base contact with the challenger. If neither of these moves would result in the two models being in base to base contact 'swap' the challenger to as close as possible to the challengee and assume the two to be in base contact for the purposes of the ensuing fight.
 

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If a challenge has been accepted, it is time to move the two combatants into base contact with each other. Note that these moves cannot be used to move a character out of unit coherency. If possible, swap the challenger for a friendly model in base contact with the challengee. If this cannot be done, swap the challengee for a friendly model in base contact with the challenger. If neither of these moves would result in the two models being in base contact, ‘swap’ the challenger to as close as possible to the challengee and assume the two to be in base contact for the purposes of the ensuing fight.
So what should have happened is the Chaos Lord issued the Challenge, so he would have to try to get base to base with Belial, HOWEVER that is not possible when swapping friendly models. So Belial has to try to do that with a friendly model of his own... again this is not possible. So the Chaos Lord swaps with someone in combat, and Belial stays put BUT they are presumed to be in combat.

...DD.B.DD
.....D..D....
....C....T
..T.T.T.T.T
OR
...DD.B.DD
.....D..D....
....T....C
..T.T.T.T.T

However if Belial had issued the challenge then his new position may end up with losing his bonus Toughness depending if originally the guy at the front has base contact with 2 Knights with their fancy shields. Though as said above the pile in would probably get the bonus back, though as that is done on I step it may mean the Lord if using a weapon that strikes at I then would strike before the DW can pile back in around Belial.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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...unless I'm very much mistaken, characters engaged in challenges "only count as in base contact with each other," no? Then a whole bunch of jokeying to keep Belial in base contact with friendly Deathknights means nought, since when in the challenge--whether or not he moved-- he only counts as in base contact with his foe.

Could be misquoting based on a misread of the rules to address not-the-issue being asked about, but...
 

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@Mossy Toes

Ish, but not for the purpose you're thinking of.

1) Move Combatants into base contact provided cannot move character out of coherency with the unit
2a) Swap challenger (issuer) for friendly model in base contact with challengee (acceptor)
2b) Failing that, Swap Acceptor for friendly model in base contact with the Issuer.
2c) If neither gets the models in base contact with each other, then "swap" the Issuer to as close as possible to the Acceptor and assume to be in base contact.

That is assuming that the challenge went ahead; i.e both the issuer and acceptor were in base contact with an enemy model; but in this apparent case neither were. The challenge should a) never have been made by the Lord and b) never been accepted by Belial.

6th edition didn't matter so much; but in this edition it does make the difference.

There was a humourous occasion recently when I used my Sevatar to slingshot an enemy Praetor nearly 15" after the enemy legion tactical squad he was baby sitting was engaged by a Night Raptor squad only to have Sevatar and his Veterans engage on the other side of the unit; the Night Raptor had already lost its Sergeant to the Praetor, but the Tactical Sergeant failed its Look Out, Sir! so Sevatar issued a challenge, and Emperor's Children being Emperor's Children had to accept. There's no limit on the move, so the Praetor ended up teleported 15", right onto Sevatars chainglaive, taking 2 Rending Instant Death wounds, and failing both Invulnerable Saves because of this rule.

Rubber banding is brilliant.



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...unless I'm very much mistaken, characters engaged in challenges "only count as in base contact with each other," no? Then a whole bunch of jokeying to keep Belial in base contact with friendly Deathknights means nought, since when in the challenge--whether or not he moved-- he only counts as in base contact with his foe.

Could be misquoting based on a misread of the rules to address not-the-issue being asked about, but...
I think that is old rules for that, when challenges disappeared in to some form of external dimension that only consisted of them (or as the rules said something like you pick the models out of the unit and placed them nearby but in a position that could no way interfere with anything around them.), what was how WFB used to play it.
 

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That is assuming that the challenge went ahead; i.e both the issuer and acceptor were in base contact with an enemy model; but in this apparent case neither were. The challenge should a) never have been made by the Lord and b) never been accepted by Belial.
BRB said:
If a unit has one or more models in base contact with an enemy model (for any reason), then it is locked in combat.
So even if they are not in base to base with an enemy, as long as their unit is, they class as locked in combat, and that is the only 2 things you need for challenging is that you are a character and are Locked in Combat (what as above says, if your unit is you are), and that there is a character who can accept the challenge in the opposite unit that is also locked in combat.
 

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Edit one sec, just clarifying something

Just discovered that engaged meant within 2" of a model in base contact. In this case, it seems likely that both Lord and Belial were "engaged" and capable of issuing challenge, apologies.

So; 2a could not happen, but neither could 2b, so 2c occurs, forcing the issuer to "swap" to be as close as possible, i.e, remove one of the Chaos Terminators in base contact and put the Chaos Lord in that place; that Terminator then losing its Pile In Move as well.

In short, in this instance, Belial wouldn't have moved. If the Chaos Lord had been in combat, however, Belial would have been forced to swap with the DWK once he accepted. As you can see the optimal is to have 2 ranks of Deathwing because of this, so that he is always within reach of 4 or more DWK's.



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Edit one sec, just clarifying something

Just discovered that engaged meant within 2" of a model in base contact. In this case, it seems likely that both Lord and Belial were "engaged" and capable of issuing challenge, apologies.
No worries, though if taken as written they do not even have to be counted as "Engaged" just "Locked" in combat. As the model swaps to be as close as possible to the enemy character... this does however mean you could have the weird situation that you have a
a formation like (C = Champ, K = Knight, T = Termy, L = Lord)

---C---
-K---K-
K-----K
T--T--T
-L---T-

Turn in to

---C---
-K---K-
K-----K
T--L--T
-T---T-

So that that Lord and Champ weren't touching and could not be made to touch by swapping 1 model on either side (individually) and so the lord has to take the place in the middle of the combat that still could not hit anyone, though is then presumed to be able to hit the champ (though that would be sorted out when piling in).
 

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Its in the Second paragraph under Issuing a Challenge

To issue a challenge, nominate a character in one of your units locked in the combat to be the challenger.
This is unless my Digi one is worded different to a physical one (what is actually the case, there is about 4-5 differences in wording in the book I remember reading).

And yes they should just get rid of the whole moving thing. it is rather stupid, and equally like old WFB they could just be moved to 1 side if that is what they really wanted to achieve. The trouble is that now you have overspill (like in WFB) what has to kill the closest models to them, so could influence who dies. That could be an issue if there are 2 characters in the enemy unit, or maybe 2 characters in your unit and you want to move yourself to be closer to them if they are next to each other, so you can make sure that previously sacrificial sergeant doesn't then waste a load of additional wounds you wanted to go on their lord doesn't just end up killing normal guys. Or as said you could use it to protect your leader or something as you don't want that one to die, so you send your sacrificial sergeant to the other side of the combat.
 

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Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges.

This rule within that same paragraph trumps that rule. Wound allocation is fine, characters etc still get look out sir, and is more important for the defender to space/deploy his models in a fashion which he doesn't want to lose wounds to "overkill".

PS, in fantasy, overkill wounds aren't carried over IIRC? They are just a number which goes towards the combat resolution.



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Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges.

This rule within that same paragraph trumps that rule. Wound allocation is fine, characters etc still get look out sir, and is more important for the defender to space/deploy his models in a fashion which he doesn't want to lose wounds to "overkill".

PS, in fantasy, overkill wounds aren't carried over IIRC? They are just a number which goes towards the combat resolution.
Yep I see you are right on that one. It also says in the next bit for accepting a challenge they must be engaged to be able to accept it. So with the case that started this topic there may have been a situation that neither the Lord or Belial could issue or accept the challenge. though the likely chance is they would have been inside of 2" of a friendly who is in base to base with an enemy. Part of quick reading from my phone while having tabs open on my PC and playing an RTS game :p
 
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