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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Ok, so, as you may know, I've put up some Chaos Homebrew in the Homebrew Rules, and am working on a pile more.

To be concise, I am writing 2 concurrent Fandexes : Chaos Legions and Chaos Renegades. Legions will cover World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Night Lords, Black Legion and presumably Iron Warriors (unconfirmed atm.)

Renegades will cover Red Corsairs, Fallen, non-Chaos Renegade Marines (except Knights of Blood, obvs) , Traitor Guard, Mutants, Cultists, Alpha Legion and Word Bearers.

In a very loose way, Legions is based on the EoT, the other not really.

Now, obviously the Big Five Legions are sorted, and need minimal work apart from points adjustment (WE, EC, DG, TS, BL) and minor issues I already consider sorted tbh. (In MY rules, not IRL)

The Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Iron Warriors are more tricky.

Here are my provisional ideas on them, feedback gratefully received.

With NL and IW in the Codex with the Cult Troopers, and the Cults likely being Troops, they need to be comprised of a separate Troop unit called 'Traitor Legionnaires'. They need an unlockable bonus, working like the Chapter Tactics mechanic - that is, when you take a Character relating to that Legion (ie, a 'Warsmith' for IW or a 'Reaver' for NL) the rule they have by default (necessarily bland and vague, so as to promote Legion-themed play) 'Ancient Enemy' or 'Eternal Hatred' or somesuch, will be replaced/overwritten by:

NL : - Raptors become Troops. All models with 'Ancient Enemy' gain the Hit and Run, Fearless and Night Vision USRs. [This needs work, it feels very underpowered :(]

IW : - All models with the 'Ancient Enemy' rule gain Melta Bombs at no additional cost. In addition, they gain the Relentless and Stealth USRs. [See what I mean? I also feel there should be a way of moving Oblits to Elite or HS a la MotF.]

With the AL and WB this is more complicated.

The Codex they reside in will have alternative Troops, in Traitor Guard (unlockable, starting as Elite) , Beastmen, Renegade Marines, Cultists...maybe Mutants go here too.

Traitor Legionnaires will be Elite, along with Cult Troops (possibly even omitted entirely, meaning you would need Team events/Apoc to field the full gamut of mortal servants of the Ruinous Powers.)

Traitor Legionnaires would move to Troops in the conventional FoC shifting way, with an HQ. While I would do this with Cypher too, I have no intent of letting the cat out of the bag regarding my thoughts there. :p

'Dark Apostles' would move Traitor Legionnaires, and give them the following:
Models with the 'Eternal Hatred' rule replace that with the Fearless and Preferred Enemy USRs.

The 'Cult of the Hydra' would move Traitor Legionnaires to Troops, and replace the 'Eternal Hatred' rule with the Scouts, Infiltrate and Hit and Run USRs. [Tempted to add Stealth. Too much? I like Alpha Legion. :wink: ]

To alleviate fears - no, I won't be omitting Daemons. They will function as now, but you will be able to purchase Marks for them, with the following effects:
Khorne - Power Weapons, Furious Charge.
Slaanesh - Rending, Fleet.
Nurgle - FnP, SnP, Poison (4+)
Tzeentch - 3++, access to a psychic shooting attack.

Thoughts?
 

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For the NL 'Ancient Enemy', why not include a rule similar to the Stormboys ability to move 12" + D6"? Since NL's are supposed to be swift and fast it would fit in
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Heh, Dark Magician Girl.

Anyway...That's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how to operate that mechanically.

Giving them Fleet would sort of do it, but it would also seem a little strong, and more than a bit uncharacterful.
 

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You could give the NL's an option to upgrade their Jump Packs to Jet Packs :search:
It would give them an extra 6" movement in the Assault Phase, so it effectively be the same as giving them the rule
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Ah...now THAT's interesting.

Hrmm...+Rep for idea. :)

What do you think of the other Legions? Too good/bad/unfluffy?
 

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What about giving IW Relentless, Stealth, and Tank Hunters since the NL's have 3 special rules for their Ancient Enemy?

Something like:

NL: Raptors become Troops. In addition, Raptors may upgrade to Jet Packs for X amount of points. All models with 'Ancient Enemy' gain the Hit and Run, Fearless and Night Vision USRs.

IW: Devastator squads become troops. In addition, Devastators may take 2 more weapons then they would normally be allowed (or some other rule that lets them take weapons for less points). All models with the 'Ancient Enemy' rule gain Melta Bombs at no additional cost. In addition, they gain the Relentless, Stealth and Tank Hunter USRs.

I agree with the Cult of the Hydra having stealth as well. Maybe a Sniper Rifle upgrade as well? It fits with the Scout, Infiltrate pairing.

Why not give WB's a special option regrading Daemons? Or making Possessed troops and give them a rule makeover (such as paying points for special rules?)
 

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I Piss in your Cheerios
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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Well, Word Bearers fluff says that mutation is rare, though they almost revere the one directly touched by the Dark Gods...I hadn't considered making Possessed Troops.

I am wary to put an 'arms race' in by trying to have X USRs each or whatever...I seriously thought about Tank Hunters, and in the end felt it too much - they are about Sieges, not tank-hunting. Plus, it detracts from Chosen paying points for it, which I plan to reinstate.

IW making Devs (Havocs!) Troops would be more than enough without cheaper too, lol. It would be good, no question, but I'd need a way to make them only an option, not an auto-pick. The last thing I want if for them to become the obviously best build (again) and play like it was 4e all over again.

One thing I should have stated was part of my Design Brief was that I don't want Chaos able to do Melta like Imperials.

Of course, they will get fairly easy access, and it IS the only reliable tank-killing rather than suppression - BUT, I want Chaos to be more geared towards MEQ killing, and therefore Plasma-spam. I just have to balance that so they don't auto-win against Nids.

I don't imagine Alpha Legion Snipers, more Saboteurs (and not like in the awful game!)
Stealth may not be overpowered to add, but it makes the Cult expensive.

When I get to it, I will see I think.

Thanks, and keep the ideas going! :)
 

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For AL, Scouts, Infiltrate, Stealth, and Hit and Run seem to set them up as Strong Skirmishers and Saboteurs. Maybe some type of special weapon or rule that reflects their high cost-low model situation? Maybe something like the Hellions rule to be able to drag an IC out of CC after they make their Hit and Run move? This could be used to change the role of the Alpha Legion depending on what was used to move them, this being an example for the Cult of Hydra.

By using the Dark Apostles to move the AL, you could set them up to be fierce warriors, backed up by the fearless and preferred enemy USR's. Maybe an additional rule such as Rending could go here? Again, it sets them up as high point-low model strong fighters. Plus by changing the way you move AL, you change the role of Alpha Legion and the role of the entire army, leading to varied lists.

Have you considered an army-wide Preferred enemy against Loyalist Marines? Reasoning being many Chaos Marines still consider the war against the Imperium to still continue, and it represents their eternal hatred of the Imperium. Another reason could be that since they are essentially Space Marines (just totally evil) they know the weakness of how Space Marines fight and operate.

As far as Plasma Spam, I dont really have any idea's apart from making it insanely easy for models to access Plasma weaponry. Maybe letting Havoc's (I had a feeling calling them Dev's was wrong :laugh:) take Plasma Cannons?

I do agree with your reasoning on Tank Hunters though. Maybe you could enable to have different roles in the game by making various USR's able to be purchased for them. ie Melta Chosen w/ Tank Hunters, Sniper Chosen w/ Scout and Infiltrate etc. Although I do see this as perhaps making Chosen too overpowered...
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Preferred vs 'Space Marines' wouldn't work, as it omits SoBs, IG, Space Wolves, BA, DA, BTs, GKs etc etc. Putting all of these in makes the rule 'clunky' and unwieldy. :(

The Plasma Spam I have sorted, I just wanted to get that out there. lol

I would rather see the Hellions the only one with that ability.

Bear in mind they essentially get these USRs free, or at least discounted.

Also, Dark Apostles are Word Bearer only. :p

Chosen will be very good (think Wolf Guard or Sanguinary Guard) but quite costly too. Perhaps 'a unit of Lone Wolves' would be the closest analogy.
 

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Why exactly 3 USR's? Raven Guard get Fleet. It's a relatively "powerful" rule in the right circumstances, but only of use in assault units, really - and Assault Marines aren't effective (for their cost) as assault units, and Vanguard are too expensive to make use out of. Scouts could benefit, but then again, they're fairly poor in an assault as well. The one unit majorly benefitting is Assault Terminators, and plopping them in a vehicle is more than enough.

Night Lords - they just had Night Vision/Acute Senses. Assault Marines were used before others in the Legions, but that doesn't mean they have any more. However, the same could be said of Blood Angels, and look where that gets them. Night Lords - perhaps they grant an addition -1 to Morale Check modifiers in an assault, akin to "Daemonic Visage"?

IW - I'd like to say Havoc's can score, but that's not particularly nice (as it's then achoice between Scoring Heavy Weapons Teams or Obliterators). Perhaps a Warsmith (can take a Servo Harness, or Daemonic Conversion Beamer - Kai Gun?). Perhaps give thm Stealth or Stubborn when in ruins?



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I Piss in your Cheerios
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Discussion Starter #11
Me said:
I am wary to put an 'arms race' in by trying to have X USRs each or whatever...
lol Vaz.

I don't aim for a set number, just things to appropriately represent the Legions.

Stealth in Ruins (akin to Kroot's Woods ability) would make sense largely, but is too situational and limiting. I don't want your army to become worse because the table happens not to have the correct terrain type.

Daemonic Visage is an idea, and not one I dislike - but I didn't know if it would be streamlined enough to put in 'Ancient Enemy' with the other stuff.

Kai Gun is certainly something I wish to revisit - but I don't want to make the Warsmith just a 'Chaos MotF' by giving it to him over DPs. Just feels like you should play as Codex : Space Marines.
 

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Giving NL jetpacks isn't gonna make them any faster, if anything it makes them slower. Jetpacks only move 6" in the movement phase so you have a max 12" charge, JPs have a max 18" charge.

As for the IW maybe do a cross between the techmarine ability to reinforce a ruin and stubborn (ie IW player picks one terrain piece in deployment zone, now counts as fortified, +1 cover save and assault grenades don't work, IW units count as stubborn while inside?)
 

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Giving NL jetpacks isn't gonna make them any faster, if anything it makes them slower. Jetpacks only move 6" in the movement phase so you have a max 12" charge, JPs have a max 18" charge.
Jetpacks get to move an extra 6" in the assault phase and get to move 6" in the movement and 6" assault, and gain relentless.

Jump Packs move 12" in the movement phase, and have a 6" assault range.

Jet packs are better, because they give relentless. These is no movement difference at all
 

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Unless I read the rules wrong, there is a movement difference, in that they can't go 12 in the movement phase, thus shortening their effective charge threat range. So while great for tau to Jump shoot jump, raptors and assault marines would prefer to get 12" closer to the enemy and be able to charge that turn. Relentless would be really situational as unless TKE makes major changes they won't be carrying more than 2 rapid fire weapons in any squad size.

I had a couple of other trait style ideas (although I do like the meltabombs and defensive grenades):
IW - to represent both siege and 'Forlorn Hope' style warfare (Storm of Iron, McNeil)

Warsmith may purchase one of two special rules (names are placeholders) "First into the breach" - squads of types X, Y, Z, receive +1 WS and +1A when they have a model within 6" of the character. A squad joined by the character also receives furious charge.

"Master of the siege" - squads of types X, Y, Z receive +1 BS and the 'tank hunters' special rule within 6" of character. A squad joined by the character also receives relentless.

I would like to receive some feedback on the above. I have great respect for you, TKE, and admire the work you are doing with this chaos codex. I just think that chaos needs some force multipliers and ability bubbles from (suitably toughened up, I hope) HQ choices that offer flexibility could be a cool idea to work with outside of the special character realm. I'm basing this on characters like the Khan and Dante who provide significant bonuses to their own units, as well was w/e the space wolf character's name is, and the presence of several "bubble" force bonuses in recent codices such as blood angels and space wolves psychic powers, the sanguinor, and pedro cantor.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Will comment more on this later (will edit in, if no other posts) but rest assured things like the Corrupted Chirurgeon (HQ unit, not Fabius' Wargear), Dark Mechanicus, Arch-Anarchist, and certain SCs will have 'bubble' effects.
 
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