Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
411 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Saw this thread on B&C, and thought I might bring it to you guys.


Primaris and the Black Templars - + Black Templars + - The Bolter and Chainsword


Like Brian Potter in Phoenix Nights* - "I don't know if you've noticed, but I collect Black Templars", or at least have been doing since 3rd; Ive got shit loads of those fanatical bastards!
Up until relatively recently when I became disillusioned (and somewhat distracted by Iron Warriors), I was still cracking out crusader squads and land raider crusaders to kill heretics, burn witches and generally bonk Big-Es enemies on the head... Now I don't know where Helbrecht and the Templarly order stands. Do we like Daddy G, it seems like, as a few on the B&C thread have said - some admech robot turned up, made an alliance with a bunch of stinking xenos and some traitor who claims he isn't, resurrected Girlyman and then pulled some fancy new marines out of his backside he's been secretly working on since the Heresy.


Is he saying that Big-E didn't do his best work; or GodEmps forbid, is he saying that he's better than Big-E? Because that shit just is NOT going to fly with Grimaldus and the rest of the guys.


It seems that all the chapters have simply gone along with this plan of the New Imperium, but we heard all that before with the Imperium Secundus. I saw SoH and his idea with the new marines, and I have to say (regardless of aestetic etc) they have sort of been shoehorned in there with no-one paying much attention to where the hell they came from, and WHY.






THOUGHTS??!!!?!?




* Probably a reference only the UK audience will get, but everyone should g-search it for a laugh.
** If this should go into another thread, delete it and let me know where to carry on the discussion.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
They really haven't been shoehorned in, what brought about the creation of the Primaris marines was explained by and large.

Guilliman had Cawl work on rebuilding the ranks of the then legioness astartes during the Scouring and before the project could be completed Guilliman was struck down by Fulgrim (not during the Scouring mind you.) Without the backing of Guilliman, Cawl lost a great mind and powerful backing/protection for his work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
411 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
But since then, a LOT has changed in the imperium, the chapters/legions have become more autonomous and some (like wolves and Templars for example) particularly set in their ways. I get that gulliman and cawl came up with them (and then the project got shelved), and so the ultramarines have had them introduced into their ranks, but surely not every chaptermaster in the adeptus astartes has accepted them - after all, non-codex chapters have been giving gulliman the two fingered salute for ten thousand years, so why are they now all chummy?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
but surely not every chaptermaster in the adeptus astartes has accepted them
No, only roughly 94% of all chapter have accepted Primaris marines at this point. While many chapters can draw their genetic legacy back to the Ultramarines, an equal number of chapters have undoubtedly found themselves understrength and in dire need of reinforcement. Crimson Fists, Flesh Tearers, Marines Malevolent, and Mantis Warriors, just to name a few, are all chapters with strength below 50% and in dire need of a way to bolster their ranks.

- after all, non-codex chapters have been giving gulliman the two fingered salute for ten thousand years, so why are they now all chummy?
Actually there are only a handful of chapters as divergent from the codex astartes as the Space Wolves. When you really stop and think about it, though the Space Wolves maintain their traditions and practices, they do, in their own way, loosely follow Guillimans codex. There are less than two thousand Space Wolves (less after the events of the Gathering Storm) broken into twelve companies.


Also keep in mind that in present 40k while traditions and things might have slightly altered in ten thousand years, a primarch, the gene sons of the Emperor, still deserves respect. The Black Templars were the ones who stood against the traitor legions when they returned, the same traitors that Guilliman himself drove from Imperial space. I'd argue that Guilliman is the only other primarch the Templars respect nearly as much as their own.
 

·
Dazed and confused.
Joined
·
8,496 Posts
The Space Wolves are not fans of the Primaris, apparently. "Russ' warrior-sons of the older breed remain aloof..." despite there now being successor chapters, including one named the Wolf Spears. That's what a primaris captain said to his SW sgt in DI when the sgt received his assignment to said successors.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,520 Posts
I'll note again that the most divergent Chapters ( Space Wolves, Blood Angels ) got a very convenient downsizing to 'barely surviving' in fluff just before the Primaris arrived on the scene. So... Accept Primaris Marines or likely go extinct as you try to rebuilt from a tiny remnant over the next few hundred years.

The Black Templars are one of the few Chapters with both the pull and the numbers not to jump at Guilliman's offer (even though they DID lose all but a handful of a full Crusade at Cadia) so they could have taken the time to make a more informed choice. Celestine's opinion might've been given some weight?

Still want to shake Guy Haley and the rest of the BL crew for Dark Imperium not even MENTIONING her...
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Just want to point out, the Blood Angels are not that divergent from the codes astartes. While they favour assault squads and have the death company they otherwise operate as any other codex chapter.

It's the same with the Dark Angels, whose most divergent trait is the ravenwing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,520 Posts
The sons of Sanguinius actually diverge quite a bit, though most of it is distinctly more subtle than the Space Wolves (... okay, more subtlety than the Wolves isn't a high bar to cross).

-Combat style divergence gets underlined with adaptations on vehicles (Furioso and Libby Dreads, Baal Pred).
-Organisation also diverges with the inclusion of the Sanguinary Priests
-Likely because of the Flaws, Legion spirit still very alive. Note the successors still answer Dante's call with relative ease - see his call for tithes from the successors and the even more recent defense of Baal. Only part of that is Dante himself.
-Astorath operates across all Blood Angel successors
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
411 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
I've not read dark imperium yet - how did SW get nerfed?


Out of all the 40k chapters, the majority are ultramarines descendants, so you would think that they would fill up first (and how long does it take for them to make these bigmarines anyways; normal marines are scouts for a good couple of decades I thought).


I can see Sanguinius' lot accepting them given there's only about ten left, but I cant see space wolves and Templars being all too overjoyed with gulliman picking up his dads sword, pumping out a new astartes and launching a crusade - he may be the emperors son, but he sort of has form in mini empire building!


I disagree with darkreaver about the Templars having the greatest of respect for gulliman because he drove chaos back - he's a goddam primarch and warrior of the imperium, death or victory are their own reward. A vague respect because he's a direct son of the emperor is as far as I'd stretch. Templars hold most 1st founding chapters in contempt because they have stayed in formation to protect civilians instead of crushing the enemy under their boots. Anything less than complete and utter devotion to destroying all enemies of the Emperor isn't worth passing the salt in the mess hall, and only barely a step away from a bolt round between the eyes.


If theres (reportedly) 5000 Templars, of which at least 2000 went with Helbrecht, Yarrick etc to chase down Ghazgul, there would still be another 2000 kicking about on smaller crusades, and they usually replenish 20% of normal losses from local populations when they find viable planets; loss of a single crusade (which was pretty small really from what I've read from B&C etc) is almost negligible in the grand scheme.


What's next; Templars having primaris librarians; don't make me sort my milk!
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
The sons of Sanguinius actually diverge quite a bit, though most of it is distinctly more subtle than the Space Wolves (... okay, more subtlety than the Wolves isn't a high bar to cross).
Most of those subtle divergencies are accepted as a right of the first founding chapters. Thats why the Mechanicum don't seem to take any issue with the stormwolf or dark talon of the Space Wolves and Dark Angels respectively.

-Combat style divergence gets underlined with adaptations on vehicles (Furioso and Libby Dreads, Baal Pred).
The furioso is, by and large, a dreadnought with two close combat arms. Truth be told any chapter could field one like that, but many see the merit in arming them with a heavy weapon as support.

When it comes to the librarian dreadnought, why other chapters don't seem to have this is a decent mystery. And as far as the Baal predator, its just one of a number of predator variations designed more for close range support as opposed to long range.

-Organisation also diverges with the inclusion of the Sanguinary Priests
Who are apothecaries first, and semi chaplains as they look out for signs of the red thirst second.

-Likely because of the Flaws, Legion spirit still very alive. Note the successors still answer Dante's call with relative ease - see his call for tithes from the successors and the even more recent defense of Baal. Only part of that is Dante himself.
Are you referencing the Blood Angels request tithe to their successors from James Swallow's Blood Angels novels? Cause I distinctly remember Gabriel Seth making such a compelling argument to his fellow chapter masters against the tithe that they were onboard with the idea of disbanding the the Blood Angels and drawing the remains into their own ranks instead.

As for legion spirit still being alive to the point where they will come together:
-The Ultramarines and their successors coming together over the skies of Tsagualsa to exterminate the Night Lords.
-The Imperial Fist and the successors returning something akin to legion strength to enact the Last Wall during the War of the Beast.
-The Unforgiven have, on multiple occasions, come together to capture Fallen Angels.

-Astorath operates across all Blood Angel successors
You are correct, he does and that is something that us unique to the sons of Sanguinius.


Now keep in mind that I am not saying the Blood Angels are not divergent from the codex astartes. Their history as a founding legion (among other things) gives them the right to not follow the codex to the letter. However to say they are highly divergent is not entirely accurate, they are still organized and mostly operate as per the codex astartes.

I've not read dark imperium yet - how did SW get nerfed?
The Dark Angels, and possibly Grey Knights, were tricked into attacking Fenris while the scattered Space Wolves fought them and a dozen daemonic incursions meant to snuff out them and the Wulfen the Space Wolves were now trying to protect.

normal marines are scouts for a good couple of decades I thought
It takes roughly a decade for an aspirant to undergo all the training and implantation required for them to be made a full space marine, in fact its generally complete by the age of 20 or so.

but I cant see space wolves and Templars being all too overjoyed with gulliman picking up his dads sword, pumping out a new astartes and launching a crusade - he may be the emperors son, but he sort of has form in mini empire building!
Well keep in mind that the only empire building the greater Imperium knows Guilliman for his Ultramar. His Imperium Secundus was not largely known, especially by the likes of the Space Wolves or Imperial Fists.

And why would the Templars not be happy seeing a primarch leading the charge against the enemies of man in a crusade? You said it yourself, they have disdain for other chapters because they don't do that very thing. Now you have one of the Emperor's greatest marvels leading a crusade, essentially validating the MO of the Templars.

I disagree with darkreaver about the Templars having the greatest of respect for gulliman because he drove chaos back
I never said greatest respect, as that would be owed to the Emperor and Dorn. What I said was of all the other primarchs Guilliman would likely be the one they respected almost as much as their own for what he achieved.

A vague respect because he's a direct son of the emperor is as far as I'd stretch. Templars hold most 1st founding chapters in contempt because they have stayed in formation to protect civilians instead of crushing the enemy under their boots.
Yes, things that the chapters fell a bit more into doing without the presence of the primarchs (to one degree or another.) Since his return Guilliman has launched crusade after crusade, crushing the enemies of mankind in a bid to unite and protect the shattered Imperium.

If theres (reportedly) 5000 Templars, of which at least 2000 went with Helbrecht, Yarrick etc to chase down Ghazgul, there would still be another 2000 kicking about on smaller crusades, and they usually replenish 20% of normal losses from local populations when they find viable planets; loss of a single crusade (which was pretty small really from what I've read from B&C etc) is almost negligible in the grand scheme.
For the Black Templars, unlike most other chapters, it would not be about replenishing losses. Crusades do not stop taking in new recruits once they hit a certain number, instead they keep building until they swell to such a size that a new crusade can be born. Primaris marines would allow the Black Templars to do this at a greater rate, since their losses would be even less while recruitment goes up.

Look at it as something like this:
Start with 50, each year sees 10 losses and 15 additions.
VS
Start with 50, each year sees 5 losses and 20 additions.

If at 100 you split into 2 groups, it takes 10 years for the first instance to achieve that vs 4 years for the second. That would mean in the same 10 year period you more than quadruple your numbers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,216 Posts
Sorry for the necro but, why did Roboute and Cawl even get together to make them in the first place? I have not been in the hobby for at least 3 years and max 5 years so any info I have is outdated as hell.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,520 Posts
Apparently, Roboute originally gave the order when he was trying to get the Imperium back into SOME sort of shape right after the Horus Heresy. So at the time nearly all the non-traitor Legions were anywhere from heavily bruised to practically gone, the military might of the Imperium is devastated... He predicted another major attack from Chaos sooner or later and wasn't certain if the Space Marines would be enough.

What do you know, he finally wakes up during the 13th Black Crusade and Cawl's got those Primaris he ordered ready to deal with exactly that scenario, awaiting only his order. Thus, Ultima Founding and Guilliman goes after the Chaos horde with a horde of Cawl's Primaris Marines.

I'll note here the Space Marines would probably have had an easier time dealing with the 13th Black Crusade if Guilliman has listened to Dorn's concerns and NOT broken up the loyal Legions, as dealing with Chaos Space Marines in the hundreds of thousands is kind of somewhat DIFFICULT for Chapter-sized forces, but there you go.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,216 Posts
That sounds incredibly dumb? Why not make the primaris available as soon as possible and to all chapters when they started it instead of being delayed 10k years? But why did GW bring back Roboute instead of Lion or something?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,520 Posts
There's a long startup time involved anyway. Figuring out new additions to the Space Marine implants isn't easy, add in working out the new equipment... It's a big job and all that while most of the Mechanicus has an understandable wariness about innovation (at best) so they're not going to be helping much. There may have been some small test groups killing enemies of the Imperium running around, we don't know.

Add in the fact that Cawl is effectively trying to improve on the work of the Emperor which is pretty much blasphemy to most of the Imperium and requiring somebody very high up to give a final okay on releasing the results of such experimentation on the galaxy is logical. It's unlikely anybody short of a Primarch could have made that call and lived.

As for why Roboute... because the Smurfs are the GW posterboys. The first Loyal Primarch with a 40K model was always going to be him. :boredom:
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Why not make the primaris available as soon as possible and to all chapters when they started it instead of being delayed 10k years?
Because by the time Cawl finished the primaris project to where it could be implemented, Guilliman had been wounded by Fulgrim and was in stasis. At that point in time, the Imperium had moved to a stance where what Cawl did would have been considered heresy of the highest level; without the backing of Guilliman he would have been killed, the primaris destroyed, and all knowledge of the project wiped from existence.



But why did GW bring back Roboute instead of Lion or something?
Well Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus are dead and no one knows the whereabouts of the Khan, Vulkan, Russ, or Corax. Dorn is believed dead (and depending on the source material you go by either one of his hands, or his entire skeleton, is encased in amber on the phalanx) and the Lion is missing (only the watchers know that he is somewhere deep in the Rock in a state of semi stasis.)


Guilliman was in stasis on Macraage, stuck that way until there was a way to prevent the mortal wound Fulgrim dealt him with the anatheme from killing him.




Bringing Guilliman back kind of made sense. Of all the primarchs in the post Heresy era, he was the one who kept the fractured Imperium together. How many other primarchs were empire builders and not just warlords?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,216 Posts
Ah though woiuldn't Guilliman have left a pamphlet or something to protect Cawl?


But just griping that it wasn't my primarch that got back more than anything else.

Also also nice to see your still around dark!
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
10,978 Posts
But just griping that it wasn't my primarch that got back more than anything else.

Guilleman was the candidate that the Ynnari chose, either because he was the only option they knew of or they felt he was the best suited, or both.



Either way, they had the power of life and death at their disposal, and the act required that Big Blue be allowed to die before he could be resurrected.



I'd also like to point out my admiration for how it was all handled. Rather than Roboute seeing the problem and immediately setting out to fix it like some hero from legend, he laments that he was brought back into this struggle after already giving his all to try and save the Imperium in the past. He even remarks that it would have been better the Imperium perished in the fires of Horus' ambition than to have become what it is today.



It seems duty is the only thing that still compels him to try again.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top