[Kreuger]

I guess I dint know how to think about primarch resilience, because I the one hand they are incredibly tough, but on the other more than half of them are dead. And something killed them.

On the topic of the game harlequin's kiss . . . It isn't full of "razor wire" or "sharp wire", it's full of mono-filament wire. My recollection of the description is that the wire is a single molecule or atom wide and cuts by passing between the bonds of other atoms/molecules. At least in the old fluff it could basically dice anything it touched armor, flesh, or supernatural being.

I don't know if any of that has changed though.

I'm not really taking a side, I just don't know how to think about primarch resilience.

 

[Zakath]

I'm sorry for the off topic but.. Intentionally taking a sniper round to the head and "walking away fine" must be the single most idiotic piece of GW fluff I have heard. I know that Primarchs are supposed to be further enhanced by esoteric Warp magicks but there seems to be nothing capable of harming them. Why didn't the Primarchs conquer star system all by themselves, why trouble the astartes legions at all..

EDIT: Since harlequin's kisses can liquify greater daemons and hive tyrants, I think it's reasonable to assume it liquifies primarchs.
Since a Lucifer Black can score a hit on a primarch (Legion), I think it's more than reasonable to assume harlequins can score hits against the primarchs.
Since reason has very little play in primarch (or much other astartes) fluff I think this is a moot question

 

[Brother Lucian]

I'm sorry for the off topic but.. Intentionally taking a sniper round to the head and "walking away fine" must be the single most idiotic piece of GW fluff I have heard. I know that Primarchs are supposed to be further enhanced by esoteric Warp magicks but there seems to be nothing capable of harming them. Why didn't the Primarchs conquer star system all by themselves, why trouble the astartes legions at all..

Theres only 18 primarchs after all. Look at the fate of Rogal Dorn, superior numbers did him in. And the aformentioned scene was in the early parts of Angel Exterminatus.

Decapitation did in both Ferrus Manus and Konrad Curze. Horus strangled Sanguinius.

 

[Brobaddon]

I heard from my friend that an actual starship fell on one of the primarchs ( I think it was Horus, no idea and my memory quite honestly sucks.) and pierced his primary heart. Supposedly, the primarch in question just pushed it away and got up. So yeah.....

As for sniper bullet to the head...... It's not really overstretched. If a bullet in the head was all it took to take down a primarch, then Emperor's dealing with Chaos gods and super advanced genetic manipulation would be a fail , since just about any assassin could have killed them then.

In thousand sons though, one of the xeno titans aimed his weapon arm at Magnus and probably would have killed him if not heavily wound were it not for Phosis T'kar's psychic barrier/shield or whatever it was.

 

[Brother Lucian]

And a warhound titan stepped on Angron, but he held it up with sheer rage even as his muscles popped and tore to buy Lorgar time to get clear. And Lorgar was burned badly by plasma blasts.

 

[SoL Berzerker]

Fulgrim took a Raven Guard sniper bullet to the head and walked away just fine, Fabius Bile digging it out from his brainpan shortly after. The primarch intentionally had let himself be hit to play on Peturabo's heartstrings.

But I restate, their rules have them imune to instant death attacks. So Harlequins trying to toy with them is in for a quite rude suprise. The Emperor crafted his sons well.

He took a bullet to the head, with 85% of his brain still in tact. However, if this wire went into his head, his brain would be turned into water, with the rest of the wire proceeding to shoot down his neck, performing the same actions to his spinal column and arteries.

The Primarchs are immune to instant death, but I can think of many ways to one hit a Primarch. One clear example would be decapitation, using Ferrus Manus as my example. Yes he suffered other wounds, but one single strike is what actually killed him. As with decapitation, the Harlequin's Kiss leaves no time for regeneration.

And like The Irish Commissar said, the Harlequins would aim for the vulnerable neck and head of a Primarch, I have yet to read of them wearing helmets aside from Vulkan. A shot to the head would probably kill them.

If I'm wrong about the Primarchs not wearing helmets, please correct me, but I do not believe that I am.

 

[Brobaddon]

Well, Vulkan is a perpetual meaning nothing is effectively able to kill him. I wondef if there'll be more primarchs revealed to be perpetuals in the upcoming hh novels.

 

[MidnightSun]

Also the harliquins kiss is meant to take on necrons and has been for many years before the imperium.

Woah, sauce on this? I'd have thought it'd be *least* useful against Necrons, being as they have no flesh and necrodermis/living metal is pretty insane as a material.

 

[Deus Mortis]

I wondef if there'll be more primarchs revealed to be perpetuals in the upcoming hh novels.

Please no. Vulkan being a perpetual is enough bullshit already...

 

[The Irish Commissar]

Woah, sauce on this? I'd have thought it'd be *least* useful against Necrons, being as they have no flesh and necrodermis/living metal is pretty insane as a material.

Which is what I would have thought except in all the fluff harliquins guard the webway and have sent armies of their own sent against necrons to stop them reaching the black library. They do use the harliquins kiss against them. It's supposely able to tear through metal, flesh and bone. If it was ineffective they wouldnt use them.

 

[Serpion5]

Which is what I would have thought except in all the fluff harliquins guard the webway and have sent armies of their own sent against necrons to stop them reaching the black library. They do use the harliquins kiss against them. It's supposely able to tear through metal, flesh and bone. If it was ineffective they wouldnt use them.

Do you have a source that says the Harlequins specifically use their Harlie Kiss weapons against the necrons? Or that they were made for this purpose?

Because if not, you're making an assumption.

 

[The Irish Commissar]

Do you have a source that says the Harlequins specifically use their Harlie Kiss weapons against the necrons? Or that they were made for this purpose?

Because if not, you're making an assumption.

I probably am making an assumption, i'll have a look around my old books and see what I can find. Does anyone have that old harliquin codex lying around.

 

[Rems]

I guess I dint know how to think about patriarch resilience, because I the one hand they are incredibly tough, but on the other more than half of them are dead. And something killed them.

On the topic of the game harlequin's kiss . . . It isn't full of "razor wire" or "sharp wire", it's full of mono-filament wire. My recollection of the description is that the wire is a single molecule or atom wide and cuts by passing between the bonds of other atoms/molecules. At least in the old fluff it could basically dice anything it touched armor, flesh, or supernatural being.

I don't know if any of that has changed though.

I'm not really taking a side, I just don't know how to think about patriarch resilience.

A Space Marine's combat knife also has a mono-molecular edge, yet you don't see those chopping through power armour etc like there's nothing there.

Food for thought.

 

[Serpion5]

A Space Marine's combat knife also has a mono-molecular edge, yet you don't see those chopping through power armour etc like there's nothing there.

Food for thought.

Exactly, this is similar to the point I was making earlier. If the Harlequin Kiss wire is a simple uncurling mechanism, how much force is really behind it? Enough to shred through human flesh perhaps, but we know beings like astartes, primarchs and almost everything else in 40k for that matter are made of far sterner stuff.

And since others keep bringing up game stats and rules, I'll point out that these weapons only match their users' (rather low) strength and only benefit from their apparent lethality on a one in six chance. :wink:

 

[SoL Berzerker]

Exactly, this is similar to the point I was making earlier. If the Harlequin Kiss wire is a simple uncurling mechanism, how much force is really behind it? Enough to shred through human flesh perhaps, but we know beings like astartes, primarchs and almost everything else in 40k for that matter are made of far sterner stuff.

And since others keep bringing up game stats and rules, I'll point out that these weapons only match their users' (rather low) strength and only benefit from their apparent lethality on a one in six chance. :wink:

I really feel that the Kiss is toned down quite a bit for the tabletop, there are several cases in Path of the Incubus and Path of the Archon where Motley, a Harlequin, insta-kills Incubi, Archons, and Kabalites alike. Even killing through the Incubi armor, which has a 3+ armor save. If you could make a squad of 10 Harlequins where all of them had instant death it would be massively OP.

The reason you do not see Space Marine combat knives shredding through armor is because only the edge is that sharp, the rest of it is not. The entire wire in the Harlequins Kiss is that thin. A combat knife would lose a lot of its power when the thicker parts of it start creating friction with the power armor. If the entire blade was so thin, it would go through armor, but also be highly ineffective because it would snap. The Harlequins Kiss does not suffer that disadvantage because it is flexible and is meant to be bent for maximum damage.

 

[Rems]

I remain unconvinced.

Primarch skin can deflect bolter rounds. Can a harlequin punch with greater force than that?

Remember too that a primarchs physiology is a mystery to even the apothecaries of the legions, those most familiar with something approaching primarch physiology. They have a unique internal structure only superficially similair to a humans or a space marines.

Ultimately it takes something very special to kill a primarch as they're supernatural beings. Made with warp craft they're largely immune to mundane weapons and effects. The things that have proven lethal to them are other supernatural things; warp powers, deamon weapons, other primarchs.

I don't doubt it would hurt them, but i don't think it would kill them. Aside from all the above there's the fact it's going to be damn difficult to land a hit or penetrate the primarch with the weapon and once the harlequin does the primarch's hardly going to just sit there and let it liquify him. The primarch's going to rip the harlequin's arm off before too much damage is done.

 

[SoL Berzerker]

It takes a fraction of a second for the Kiss to uncoil inside the victim. The weapon does not hinder the Harlequins speed in battle.

But I do see your point, although slightly exaggerated. Roboute Gulliman was severely injured by many bolted rounds, his skin didn't do much to deflect the rounds. Primarchs are highly resilient and have a rather unknown physiology.

At this point I can go either way with it. On one hand you have the incredible lethality of the weapon, and on the other the incredible durability of a Primarch. A shot to the head I am convinced is a kill, but elsewhere in the body I would say that it would not kill.

 

[Brother Lucian]

Even among the primarchs there was ranks of sturdiness, with Mortarion ranking in the absolute top of defensive ability to soak up punishment.

 

[SoL Berzerker]

Even among the primarchs there was ranks of sturdiness, with Mortarion ranking in the absolute top of defensive ability to soak up punishment.

Over Vulkan?

 

[Over Two Meters Tall!]

On one hand you have the incredible lethality of the weapon, and on the other the incredible durability of a Primarch.

It sounds like it does come down to the irresistable force vs. the unmoveable object as far as arguments are concerned. Unless we get a story of the Khan being found and fought in the Webway by a Harlequin, who just so happens to use the Kiss, we'll just be speculating till the cows come home.

On a more practical basis, I agree with you that if one of these things did get loose inside a Primarch, then he's toast. All the sterner stuff and not knowing their physiology stuff is just BS. Uber 40K weapons can kill a Primarch, and this certainly ranks in that category. Perhaps if a Harlequin masked the Kiss as a piece of toiletpaper, boy wouldn't that be a surprise!