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Discussion Starter #1
So what would happen if a Primarch was struck with a Harlequin's Kiss? The weapon seems so fool proof in its ability to kill anything and everything. 100m of wiring that floods into the victims system, which then lashes in every direction, slicing everything in the persons body. Seems like a Primarch killer to me. Aside from Vulkan I suppose, but it would certainly incapacitate him.

I suppose the true question would be, could a Harlequin land the blow?
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Another question would be, what couldn't a Harlequin's Kiss kill? 100m of wire, that would kill even a Hive Tyrant. Could anything survive the strike?
 

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Thordis
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Another question would be, what couldn't a Harlequin's Kiss kill? 100m of wire, that would kill even a Hive Tyrant. Could anything survive the strike?
I think anything made out of flesh and blood would suffer grievously from the weapon, but I think also that there is a very good chance of primarchs actualy surviving it, considering their extraordinary healing abilities, it might just take a while for them to fully recover.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
But it quite literally turns the victim into soup. Your body fluids leak out of every hole in your body. The only reason I say Vulkan would live is because he is a perpetual. Aside from him I think they would all die.
 

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Does the Harlequin have the physical strength required to punch the weapon through the primarch's armour? And even if he can penetrate the armour, can he drive it even further into the flesh?
 

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I haven't read eldar dex but I thought the weapon didn't have AP, well aware fluff=/=rules, but theres a basic similarity.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I'm not trying to argue that a Harlequin could take a Primarch in a fight, of course not. I'm arguing, that if 100 Harlequins rushed a Primarch, and one of those 100 got a lucky hit with their Harlequin's Kiss, it would kill them. Primarchs can take getting stabbed, shot, and blasted by a titan weapon, but I honestly do not think they could survive a strike from the Harlequin's Kiss. It doesn't matter how strong your regenerative powers are, if your entire inner structure gets turned into a soup-like consistency, there is no coming back... Again, unless you are Vulkan.
 

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Thordis
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I'm not trying to argue that a Harlequin could take a Primarch in a fight, of course not. I'm arguing, that if 100 Harlequins rushed a Primarch, and one of those 100 got a lucky hit with their Harlequin's Kiss, it would kill them. Primarchs can take getting stabbed, shot, and blasted by a titan weapon, but I honestly do not think they could survive a strike from the Harlequin's Kiss. It doesn't matter how strong your regenerative powers are, if your entire inner structure gets turned into a soup-like consistency, there is no coming back... Again, unless you are Vulkan.
their inner structure much like their outer structure is a lot tougher then that of an average human or an astartes tho, what guaranty is there that it will have the same effect on a primarch as it has on an unmodified human or space marine?
 

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Considering the Primarchs can take plasma blasts and recover from it, a mere wire whipping seems like nothing.

But in the forgeworld primarch rules, they all come with 'It will not die' and 'Eternal Warrior'. The later renders them completely imune to instant kill attacks, only taking a single wound instead.


And Morty takes the primarch resilience to eleven.
Preternatural Resilience
Mortarion re-rolls failed Toughness tests and "It Will Not Die!" rolls
Automatically passes any dangerous terrain
Any weapon that wounds on a flat dice roll (for example poison) will only hurt Mortarion on a 6
 

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Discussion Starter #12
This is not a mere wire whipping, this is 100 meters of razor wire being injected into their bodies.

As for the momentum and force of the injection, if the force is great enough to push out 100 meters of wire, and then retract it in mere seconds, I think that the force behind it is quite great.

Taking a plasma shot from the outside is very different from being cut apart on a microscopic level from the inside. Think about how thin this wire is, 100 meters of it can fit lightly on the wrist of a Harlequin, it does not matter how thick or resilient the bones are of a Prmarch, this wire is so small that it can pass through just about anything.

In terms of the tabletop, it is AP- but has Rending. But the description mentions that it instantly kills the victim. It would be much too powerful to give every model in a 10 man squad instant death, so rending would have to suffice. In every case I have seen it used in the lore, it always results in an instant death.
 

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Thordis
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This is not a mere wire whipping, this is 100 meters of razor wire being injected into their bodies.

As for the momentum and force of the injection, if the force is great enough to push out 100 meters of wire, and then retract it in mere seconds, I think that the force behind it is quite great.

Taking a plasma shot from the outside is very different from being cut apart on a microscopic level from the inside. Think about how thin this wire is, 100 meters of it can fit lightly on the wrist of a Harlequin, it does not matter how thick or resilient the bones are of a Prmarch, this wire is so small that it can pass through just about anything.

In terms of the tabletop, it is AP- but has Rending. But the description mentions that it instantly kills the victim. It would be much too powerful to give every model in a 10 man squad instant death, so rending would have to suffice. In every case I have seen it used in the lore, it always results in an instant death.
so what to take into account fluffwise:
momentum/pushing strength of the monofillament wire

primarch forged armour, from IDK what kind of material.
the outside toughness of the primarch biology
the bodymass between the wire and the inner organs
the inside(or organ) toughness of the primarch biology

I honestly dont give it a whole lot of chance of getting even past one organ... there is an insane amount of muscle between that wire and its destination compared to what it was most likely designed for.
 

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I don't think the Harlequin's kiss is all as powerful as it sounds to be honest. 100m of this wire in a device the size of someone's wrist means it will be a very very thin wire, razor edged or not. I can understand such a weapon being lethal to humans, eldar, tau, and probably orks.

But astartes physiology is a step above all these. Remember, the device works optimally when it is actually punctured through the victim's skin so that the wire unfurls inside and hits the internal organs and arteries directly. But even then, we're talking varying degrees of density here, organs, fluids and bone will all offer different levels of resistance no matter how sharp something is, especially when that something is so small. A non puncturing hit probably only results in superficial external cuts.

Tyranids are on a different level altogether, most of them have endo AND exoskeletons. I believe the above mentioned Hive Tyrant would easily survive.

For that matter, I believe the Primarch will also be fine. Wounded probably, but not fatally. Unless you're gonna hit him in the eye socket with that thing. :grin:
 

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Fulgrim killed an Avatar of Khaine. Take that in for a second. That's the greatest warrior the eldar have other than being able to manifest the war god themselves. Since that's not likely thanks to Khorne, the Avatar is the best. Therefore, no, I don't believe a Harlequin would be able to defeat a primarch. It's a deadly weapon, but then again so is almost every weapon the eldar and dark eldar have.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Fulgrim killed an Avatar of Khaine. Take that in for a second. That's the greatest warrior the eldar have other than being able to manifest the war god themselves. Since that's not likely thanks to Khorne, the Avatar is the best. Therefore, no, I don't believe a Harlequin would be able to defeat a primarch. It's a deadly weapon, but then again so is almost every weapon the eldar and dark eldar have.
I am not saying that a Harlequin could beat a Primarch in a fight. I am saying that if a Harlequin were to get a lucky punch on a Primarch, the weapon would kill the Primarch.
 

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You also need to remember these aren't just normal warriors or even normal Eldar, thery're Harliquins. Some are taking it into account that the harliquins is aiming straight at the chest where some of the strongest armour is. Harliquins are super quick and sneaky they would go for the weakest armour or where there is no armour. Groups of harliquins are known to be able to take down greater daemons. Also the harliquins kiss is meant to take on necrons and has been for many years before the imperium. Now I do reailise that a primarch is tougher then anything else around but you taking about releasing a razor sharp 100m wire that cuttes and slashes flesh to pieces. I don't think it would kill a primarch but it would fatelly wound him and if it went through a primarch head it would certinally kill him imo.
 

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Fulgrim took a Raven Guard sniper bullet to the head and walked away just fine, Fabius Bile digging it out from his brainpan shortly after. The primarch intentionally had let himself be hit to play on Peturabo's heartstrings.

But I restate, their rules have them imune to instant death attacks. So Harlequins trying to toy with them is in for a quite rude suprise. The Emperor crafted his sons well.
 
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