[Stephen_Newman]

A situation soon to come up recently that made me think about the obvious title question. In a 3v3 game the 3 eldar players (me and 2 other players) are going to take all 6 phoenix lords.

Now the main question since all the lords are independent characters and thus can form a unit with themselves could they use each others rules to benefit each other? Reading from the book it states that each cannot join UNITS of aspect warriors not of their aspect but their aspect powers can affect only aspect warriors and I assume all the phoenix lords are aspect warriors. So in this regard can for example could Karandras benefit from Fuegans tank hunter skill when using his powerfist? Could Asurmen allow the entire unit to bladestorm? Can Jain zar and Barharroth allow the unit to benefit from furious charge and hit and run respectively?

Please respond. Cause if legal will be an awesome unit.

 

[hippypancake]

sadly no there is no cheese on this mouse trap

reason is that even though they are a single model each phoenix lord is a unit by himself so they would be joining a different aspect unit (albeit the creator of it) so they cannot combine forces

 

[Styro-J]

No? But they could all just join Eldrad. Since they can join units other than Aspect Warriors freely they could all just join up on someone else. Won't work for that team game but in Apoc its is fair game.

It is worth noting though that typically grouped together like that most units won't benefit much from other's aspect powers. Bladestorm would mostly just effect pistols, as it only effects shuriken weapons. No one wants Maugan Ra to shoot 6 times in one round just to lose out on 5 shots next round, you'd lose 4 shots in that trade. That unit would already have a ton of anti tank capability, though more never really hurts. Stealth and Defend would have been nice though.

 

[Stephen_Newman]

Ill get one mate to swap out maugan ra for eldrad. He adds the least to the unit as a whole. I know barharroth could suck but he does give the entire unit hit and run.

 

[Styro-J]

Not if Eldrad is in it to be sure. As only Aspect Warriors will benefit from the powers and he isn't one.

 

[maddermax]

Well, it's like this. A unit with Eldrad and 5 lords is 1200 points, there or there abouts, and is 5 guys, most of which don't have an invulnerable save. While I think you could do it.... I think it would be a terrible Idea. Most of their special rules only apply specifically to themselves (Mugan Ra), or have a limited effect with the weaponry you'll have (bladestorm will give you an extra shot for Mugan ra, but that's 5 shots instead of 4 shots, and you can't fire next turn... Bladestorm doesn't work for non-shuriken weaponry so no benefit for fugan).

So while I might deem it as possible, in an extremely round about way, as the enemy will know all about that squad, they'll just hammer the hell out of it with a few heavy shots, and the squad will die pretty quickly. The Lords just don't work together particularly well, considering they are a huge huge points sink. Good luck if you do try to use them though

 

[Styro-J]

Actually, it is a very tough squad. Extremely deadly, extremely durable. Fortune just makes 2+ save abhorrent. Lascannons still will have to deal with a 3-4+ Invul saves or a 3+ cover save. The largest threats are often one per squad, power weapons. Generally, Eldrad can snipe these out fairly well, if not then its in your best interest to position an Invul save in base with it in CC.

I ran a unit like this in an Apoc game in the formation that had the souped up Avatar (1750 in total). The Avatar tanked out against the majority of the 64 Bloodletters and Skulltaker formation, with Allied Necrons falling to the Bloodcrushers behind us. Meanwhile the rest ran along sweeping through Space Wolves. Taking out those special threats just lets this units run through anything. A large squad of TH/SS Terms would still scare me though.

Using an all character unit like that requires a lot of thought to keep it alive, but it can definitely work out. Although, it is totally Vortex bait.

 

[solkan]

I think there's a problem with the Phoenix Lords joining up.

If the Phoenix Lords are Aspect Warriors, then the Disciples rule prohibits Phoenix Lords of two different aspects from joining into the same unit. "Phoenix Lords cannot join Aspect Warrior squads that are not of their Aspect", page 54, Eldar Codex.

And if Phoenix Lords aren't Aspect Warriors, then the Eldar FAQ says that the Phoenix Lord aspect rules don't apply because those powers only apply to Aspect Warriors. "Their powers only affects units of Aspect Warriors." (Second to last question, 2008-05 FAQ).

So, the different Phoenix Lords can not join together as a unit, and/or their powers don't affect each other.

 

[Aramoro]

They can join together because Phoenix Lords are Phoenix Lords not Aspect warriors. But they are also not an aspect warrior squad so they do not pass on any benefits to anyone else.

Aramoro

 

[Winterous]

They can join together because Phoenix Lords are Phoenix Lords not Aspect warriors. But they are also not an aspect warrior squad so they do not pass on any benefits to anyone else.

Aramoro

This.
The rule says they may not join 'Aspect Warrior Squads', and since they aren't squads of guys, they aren't restricted from doing this.

Interestingly enough, RAW, the Phoenix Lords can benefit each other with their Exarch Powers

 

[Styro-J]

So, technically, would Tank Hunters allow Haywire Grenades to Pen on a 5 and a 6?

 

[Winterous]

So, technically, would Tank Hunters allow Haywire Grenades to Pen on a 5 and a 6?

No, because that's a special mechanic that ignores the regular Armour Penetration rules.

 

[Aramoro]

Even if it did Tank Hunters give you +1 to pen rolls (which you aren't making) so you'd be able to roll a 7 which does nothing.

Indeed they do benefit from some of the powers all together.

So all 6 Would have (relevant only)
Opponents lose 1 attack (min1)
Counter Attack
Leadership Check or be WS 1
Tank Hunter
Infiltrate
Move Through Cover
Skyleap (although only Barroth flies away)
Intercept so never worse than 4+ on vehicles

Sadly not Steath or Hit and Run

Aramoro

 

[Stephen_Newman]

Technically stealth, furious charge and hit and run are given since they are written as benefitting the squad and the phoenix lords are RAW a squad of independant characters. They cannot get infiltrate however.

 

[Styro-J]

Furious Charge only benefits Jain Zar in her rules. Luckily, Karandras won't lose his Stealth as that USR isn't lost with the inclusion of a none Stealth model, therefore anytime you want the Stealth bonus you want to put it on Karandras.

 

[maddermax]

Technically stealth, furious charge and hit and run are given since they are written as benefitting the squad and the phoenix lords are RAW a squad of independant characters. They cannot get infiltrate however.

Stealth is only given to a squad of Striking scorpians, as per Kandaras's special rule. Hit and Run is only conferred onto units of Swooping Hawks (as per Barroth's special rule).

They are tough, but they are 1200 points, and only "legal" because of the home rules that have been chosen for a 3v3 game - in a normal game, you wouldn't be able to do this at all. It also leaves the rest of your army with no Farseer for the falcons, and no Phoenix Lords for the Aspect squads, which I think would be a far more effective use of them. They are the cost of an army, but even at full effectiveness, they'll never do that much - enemies will just stay away from them. They aren't fleet, thanks to having to take eldrad/another seer so they can join up, so take out/stun the transport, and they're only walking 6" a turn.

 

[Styro-J]

A normal Farseer is Fleet (I believe), Eldrad is just too old to be running around like that.

 

[Winterous]

They aren't fleet, thanks to having to take eldrad/another seer so they can join up, so take out/stun the transport, and they're only walking 6" a turn.

They actually don't need that, they can join each other of their own accord.
They can only not join Aspect Warrior Squads which aren't of their Aspect, and since they aren't squads, they can hook up.

 

[Stephen_Newman]

Its not meant to be a killer combo. We thought it would be fun and fluffy to have all 6 phoenix lords running around together. I see them as too noticeable to have the enemy avoid them. Especially if they can infiltrate.

 

[Wolf_Lord_Skoll]

If your playing 3vs3, why not just Apoc it and take the formation with the Phoenix Lords and the Avatar?