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I have one friend starting to collect Necrons and two that already play Orks, so this issue is bound to come up soon.

I know Orks with enough models in their mob to count as Ld 10 become Fearless... but if there's an effect that reduces their Ld (i.e. a unit of Pariahs making everything count as Ld 7, or a Necron Lord with Gaze of Flame inflicting a -1 Ld penalty) would a mob of, for example, 30 Boyz no longer be Fearless?
 

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A mob of 30 Boyz will always count a Fearless, regardless of how many negative modifiers are applied.

It specifically states if the number of MODELS are 11 or higher, then they count as fearless.

But remember that any negative modifiers still apply if they number 10 or less.


For example....

If a unit numbers 10 models, they substitute their leadership for the number of models, which in this case is 10. If there is a -3 modifier (from something like a Terrorfex or PBS for example), then they will have a leadership value of 7.

If a unit numbers 11 models, they count as fearless. Even with the -3 modifier applied, it still goes by the number of models in the unit, not the units leadership.
 

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As cheese said about the Fearless thing.
But there is a distinction to make when it comes to modifiers.

If the modifier states that it reduces the LEADERSHIP of the enemy unit, then it has no effect if you utilise the mob rule, since it's not your actual Leadership value, but just having the test diverted to a different thing.
If the modifier affects the outcome of the test, then it always works, because your Leadership isn't being affected at all.


So if it says "Take a test with a -2 modifier" then it works. (most things are this)
But if it says "Take a test with a -2 Leadership modifier" then it doesn't work if they use the mob rule, I cannot find any examples of this in a short search, I'm not sure there are any.


*edit*
Just realised, that wasn't entirely relevant.
If something modifies the Leadership value of your Orks, then Mob rule overrides that, as it isn't actually your Leadership value, it's just acting like it.
 

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Or the Mob rule has no effect if the leadership is modified, since Mob rule can only adjust your 'normal' leadership. Or it gets caught in a never ending loop where this adjusts it to 7 and mob rule makes it 10 and this adjusts it to 7 and ad infinitum. GW hasn't given us any indication of what supercedes what. Our local group has adopted the INAT just for such occasions. While it's far from perfect, it's better than having to endlessly debate such questions.
 

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Or the Mob rule has no effect if the leadership is modified, since Mob rule can only adjust your 'normal' leadership. Or it gets caught in a never ending loop where this adjusts it to 7 and mob rule makes it 10 and this adjusts it to 7 and ad infinitum. GW hasn't given us any indication of what supercedes what. Our local group has adopted the INAT just for such occasions. While it's far from perfect, it's better than having to endlessly debate such questions.
What are you talking about?
You aren't CHANGING your Leadership, you're just substituting the number of models in your unit for the reference number on any given test, it's not actually Leadership at all, just pretending to be.
 

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I think he's referring to Pariahs they make you leadership 7 so it kinda goes

Mob Rule Ld 10!
Soulless Ld 7
Mob Rule Ld 10!
Soulless Ld 7
Mob Rule Ld 10!
Soulless Ld 7
Mob Rule Ld 10!
Soulless Ld 7
Mob Rule Ld 10!
Soulless Ld 7
Mob Rule Ld 10!
Soulless Ld 7

repeat until bored.

Aramoro
 

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..But that isn't how it works.

"Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value."

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/substitute

You aren't replacing your Leadership value at all, you're just substituting the number of models in your unit with it.
Things like Soulless alter the Leadership value of a unit, and only that; you aren't placing the Mob rule over the top of the Leadership value, you're just redirecting the stat check of the test to a different number.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that that would happen (the Soulless thing).
 

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You substitute your NORMAL leadership for 10.
Then apply the modifier, which affects the normal leadership.

So if there is 10 Boyz in a unit, and they have -2 to their leadership, then they count as leadership 8.

Regarding Pariahs vs Mob Rule, id say split the difference. Roll a dice.
On a 1-3 they count as Ld 8, on a 4-6 they count as Ld 9.
Get on with the game and have fun rather than getting stuck in never ending loops.
 

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*strokes chin sagely*
Reading over the definitions again, my interpretation of the sentence is beginning to morph.
I can definitely see where you're coming from now.

Still, I stand by my point, you aren't putting Mob in the Ld box of their profile, you're placing it over the top; the scanny beam of the Ld test comes along, and sees Mob instead of 7.

This really does come down to the interpretation of the word 'substitute'.


And anyway, there is no infinite loop, Soulless says they COUNT as having ld7, regardless of what it actually is, it's not a modifier, it's just a blanket over the top (like Mob, as I see it).
 

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I'm confused so I'll set out how I think it works and you can correct me if I've missed something.

As I read it if there are 11 or more Orks in the Mob it is Fearless. It will auto pass morale and pinning tests. Powers that effect the Ld value for a unit will have no effect on the mob for morale and pinning because it uses the Fearless rule (ie Ld is irrelevant), BUT if it is required to take a Ld test for any other reason (and I can't think of one off hand) it starts at Ld 10 (which is the highest your allowed) and this is modified by the special power/attack as normal.

If the mob is 10 Orks or less then the Orks are using their Ld for tests like Morale and Pinning and it gets modified by the power/attack as per normal.

Simples (as the Meerkat would say if it played 40K)

What am I missing?

Regards
TT
 

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OK - before you jump in I'm being daft.

You are worrying about what happens if you have 10 Orks and a Pariah unit walks up. The answer is in the Pariah's rule. The Orks Ld is established at 10 by Mob rule. However they are treated as if their Ld is 7 because the Pariah's Soulless says their Ld as 'counts as .. Ld7'. The key is that the Soulless rule does not actually change the Ork's Ld value, it just forces them to act as if their Ld were only 7.

Does that do it?


Regards
TT
Ps Sorry about the initial false start.
 

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I'm confused so I'll set out how I think it works and you can correct me if I've missed something.

As I read it if there are 11 or more Orks in the Mob it is Fearless. It will auto pass morale and pinning tests. Powers that effect the Ld value for a unit will have no effect on the mob for morale and pinning because it uses the Fearless rule (ie Ld is irrelevant), BUT if it is required to take a Ld test for any other reason (and I can't think of one off hand) it starts at Ld 10 (which is the highest your allowed) and this is modified by the special power/attack as normal.

If the mob is 10 Orks or less then the Orks are using their Ld for tests like Morale and Pinning and it gets modified by the power/attack as per normal.

Simples (as the Meerkat would say if it played 40K)

What am I missing?

Regards
TT
Just occured to me that we might be confusing the poor OP as well :laugh:

As we know, if the unit is above 10 models it's fearless, so that stuff becomes irrelevant.
And also, while typing this post, it occured to me; regardless of whether or not I'm right about the RAW of the matter, that Mob rule is not modified by Leadership penalties, that's definitely not the RAI, or they would have made it clear (not to mention it's a bit obscure anyway).

So, I've decided that, disregarding RAW as it's a bit silly, you just replace the Ld value with Mob rule for whatever purpose you choose.
I do get caught up in RAW very easily :biggrin:

OK - before you jump in I'm being daft.

You are worrying about what happens if you have 10 Orks and a Pariah unit walks up. The answer is in the Pariah's rule. The Orks Ld is established at 10 by Mob rule. However they are treated as if their Ld is 7 because the Pariah's Soulless says their Ld as 'counts as .. Ld7'. The key is that the Soulless rule does not actually change the Ork's Ld value, it just forces them to act as if their Ld were only 7.

Does that do it?


Regards
TT
Ps Sorry about the initial false start.
Yes, that is exactly right, Soulless does not divide by zero when interacting with Mob rule.
 

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People use Pariahs? :scratchhead:

"Oh Noz, our Leadership is 7. Guess we'll just havta krump you proppa like and get our Mob Rule back... HurHurHur..."
 
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