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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Ive decided that for my first warhammer army i will go with orge kingdoms (if this donst work ill try beast men) i read the codex and found some of the fluff hysteical . But i have general questions.

1. whats a good thousand point bulid
2.whats a quick paint job
3. Ive heard of a new army book in the works, when is that coming
4.Ive heard their a bottom line army, true?
5.Are bulls/leadblechers any good (ive heard mixed opainins)
6.How effective will they be vs WoC,Skaven,VC,and empire

I heard about 8th edtion so im just going to wait for that until july before i buy a rule book but ill be borrowing a friends 7th for now.

thank you:grin:
 

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I Piss in your Cheerios
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I am not a Fantasy player, however, every opinion I've ever read on the subject tells me OK are the worst or second worst available army in Fantasy at present.

They are heavily rumoured to be getting a new book within the next 12 months, and, with the new Edition of WFB around the corner, that rumour appears to hold plenty of weight.

I would seriously recommend investing in Beastmen instead. :)



...Sadly I know sweet FA about them, and so cannot make any recommendations...
 

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I'd wait until 8th edition before investing in Ogres, especially as a first army. The fluff is cool, but all I've heard about 8th Ed seems to indicate that some of the weaknesses of OK will be addressed.
OK is one of the two armies I don't have (skaven's the other. I have trouble enough getting my goblins painted...), but I've played against them a lot. For a 6th Ed army they
can be troublesome, but I wouldn't advise them as a start. What I'd suggest is Orcs & Goblins. Their army book is one of the most versatile. You can make just about any kind of army and have one of the best attitudes in the game (We never lose. If you kill us, we're dead and it don't matter. If you chase us off, we'll just be back . Or maybe that's orks. Hey they're both green.)
As for army lists, look in that section of the forums and glean what you can from there. Personally, I don't look at that section myself. I hate telling people how to build their armies, so much of it is based on your play style ( which you can only find out by playing). If there is a group of local gamers, ask their input. Unless they're a bunch of bozos they should welcome the chance to get another person into the hobby.
 

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Yay, an Ogre question... you wait around for ages for one and then 6 come along all at once :p

1- Ogres are very strong at 1000pts, there are a lot of effective builds but I like the Irongut spam lists like:

Bruiser+equipment ~ 150pts
3 Bulls with AHW or ironfists 117/120
3 Ironguts
3 Ironguts
3 Ironguts
3 Ironguts
3 Ironguts
=990ish

very few combat lists can compete with you, but magical/shooting armies will be a total pain to beat. I tend to win all the 1k tournies we have locally with my ogres with massacres every game, but we've found that at the 1k limit almost every game is a massacre one way or the other.
If you want more thoughts on 1k lists start a whole new thread for it... there are many different builds that work well and 2 different ways of playing ogres successfully (I like MSU- many small combat units outmanouvering and smacking the enemy, Neilbatte another ogre player on the boards likes doing a gunline with gnoblars, hunters and leadbelchers.. all of which Ive had little/no success with).


2- Ogres are a quick paint job... you can get an ogre army painted quicker then any other army in any game whatsoever (mebbe with the exception of necrons). Paint the skin whatever base colour you want, mebbe a quick drybrush of a lighter tone, mebbe a quick wash. Paint the trousers, wash/drybrush trousers, paint the weapons/boots, pick out the details and you are done... ~50pt model that can take 10mins. I'll admit that I spend far more time on them then this, so I still havent got my army painted even after 2years of playing them (probably about 75% so far), but then they are at the bottom of my project lish for now.

3- yes, new book is being done, rumours abound... I heard next 3-4 months but I cant really see where it'll fit in the rumoured release schedule. Probably means it's out early next year (Jan/Feb I expect).

4- at 1k they are great... playing over 2k means they are certainly a botom line army (along with orcs and goblins). Problem is that we have nothing whatsoever to deal with beardy enemy lord choices: bloodthirsters and dragons will just tear you to bits and gunlines will laugh at you unless they have some bad luck turn 1-2 (in which case they die quite easily).

5- Bulls are iffy. You must take at least 1 unit of them, I occasionally up this to 2 so I can have a 2nd gnoblar fighter unit but ironguts are almost always better. Ironguts can deal with pretty much anything from a hoard unit up to heavy cav and heroes... but bulls cant do much against high T or good AS. Having said that they do have their niche... against anything T2-3 with little or no save bulls are supreme. So vs empire, skaven, elves and VC bulls do well... but against daemons, WoC, beastmen (depending on build) and the like they dont do very much. I normally just send mine up the flank- if they get killed so what and if they survive they'll try to flank the enemy either solo or with irongut support.
Leadbelchers are either great or rubbish, entirely depending on how lucky you are with them. I have zero luck so they are just +20pt bulls with no upgrades and the unfortunate tendancy to wound themselves... but other people play them, get lucky and then love them for the rest of their lives. Only real way to know how you feel about them is playtesting... if you get lucky with them they'll fill a crucial niche in the ogre book, if you dont then they'll do nothing and it'll be better to try to cope with the lack of shooting. I think they'll be immense in the re-write of the book though.... so could well be worth keeping in mind.

6- In theory ogres are weaker then all of those armies... but mine tend to beat all of those pretty easily with the exception of empire, which I beat but only because of mistakes from my opponents... if I played an experienced empire player (or worse- an ogre player borrowing some empire) I would have no chance.
WoC- ogres love playing WoC, Ironguts mob them, charge flanks all over and have the strength and number of attacks to do real damage. Their magic is a pain but lacking shooting and being quite slow and expensive is prefect for ogres- this is the sort of army ogres were designed to beat.
Skaven- if you mob bulls you'll do quite well, my irongut lists do ok but you will neeed a little luck to go your way. Its not an easy game but its not impossible.
VC- depends, bulls can go through VC the 'tarpits' easily and ironguts that hit hero vampires will kill them... this means you'll find VC easier then most people... but those darn VC players can be very tricksy. Basically put ogres beat poor VC players but will struggle to do much of anything against a highly skilled one.
Empire- either you'll win or lose... there is no middle ground. Against a gunline with lots of great cannons and steam tanks you just woint have a chance (characters will all die turn 1-2 no matter what you do and you'll likely break and run away before you get near the enemy.. and then you get hit with steam tanks), if they have done a combat list then laugh: empire cannot take ogres in combat without massively weakening them with shooting.


Agsinst those armies, especially at <2k pts limit you'll do well and ogres are a decent choice... its vs daemons and DE that you'll reaslly struggle and if you are playing games that have lords in then anything other then the friendliest of lists will walk over you. To put this into perspective- I am a very experienced, successful ogre player... but playing against a reasomably nasty daemon army at 2k when I had absurd luck (like my general breaking and escaping from 2 enemy units... just before a bloodthirster charged his rear, my run took me just edging past said BT and into a forest where I could rally in safety too) and everything my opponent tried either didnt work (lots of failed charges) or I had a counter for... and the game ended with him 5pts ahead of me (so a draw). I was dancing for joy at getting a draw against daemons.



... and rest :p
 

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I think Tim/steve has covered most of what's good and bad about ogres although I think that the new edition will see them become more competative.
There are rumours that ranks will be determined by base size rather than numbers which can only help the OK and also changes to how fear works may change the way the ogres work.
leadbelchers either work big or backfire big (my whole army is built around them and with my luck added in they are often devestating especially on small elite armies like elves) whether you use them often depends on your luck with the dice.
As a concequence of building my army around leadbelchers I tend to use bulls and Gnoblars more than most and the way that my army works means they fit in well although the irongut list is always going to kick the crap out of my list most other armies struggle (mostly because the list is so unusual)
to answer your questions in order though
1) at 1k points irongut spam.
2) OK are easy to paint which if they weren't so difficult to play would make them an ideal starter army.
3) the sooner the better.
4) They are at the moment but mainly because lots of players chose them for low model count/ looks then realise that they are up there with woodelves in the difficult to play armies.
5) Bulls and leadbelchers work although the bulls equiptment is to expensive but unless your building a leadbelcher based army Ironguts will always be better.
6)Depends on the builds you face, any army that spams magic or shooting will cause you grief although causing fear helps agains low ld armies like Skaven and Empire and negates the main benefit of undead massive block of infantry will always seem daunting to your 3 man units and it takes a lot of practice to beat these armies.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Thank you guys.:)
Ive decided i will start a OK and VC armies (if i dont like one i will go to the other) and if that dosnt work a friend of mine has offered me his beastmen,i could also try orks again as durzod suggested if nothing else works,i played them in 40k for a bit and were fun but i kept losing. Im fine with losing but not on a grand scale but maybe their differnt in warhammer.
Ill go with a irongut spam/bull rush for my thousand point OK and will avoid leadblechers for the time being (THEY WILL BLOW UP IN MY FACE WITH MY LUCK).
Ill try to post post some shots of painted orges when i get my first box (just ordered a box of bulls @ some skeltons off wayland, lower prices well worth the wait.)

untill then may you all roll sixs:wink:
 
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