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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all,

I have been pondering how to make Orcs and Goblins a truly competitive army, not just which builds minimise their downsides, but what is lacking from the armylist itself. It is fairly obvious that the biggest downside to Orcs and Goblins as an army is Animosity; a one in three chance of your army doing something of its own accord is fairly bad news for most generals. Couple that with abysmal leadership and more often than not an Orc and Goblin army is doing anything but what the player wants. Though it is possible to partially compensate against these effects, they are still a large part of greenskin armies.

With that in mind I went looking for inspiration from other armies. So we have Skaven; a horde army with a rank based leadership bonus. Warriors of Chaos; the warshrine, a symbol of the Chaos gods - gives bonuses to unit champions. Lastly the Empire; the war altar, though different in function is still a symbol of the Empire's religion on the battlefield.

With the greenskins love of Gork and Mork it seems reasonable that they would drag symbols of their gods in to battle and the above examples show it is not unreasonable to use such an object to apply an army wide rule. So it set me thinking, 'What about an Orc and Goblin Warshrine?'

It would seem wise to add a caveat here to appease concerned readers; this is a suggestion for what might be a viable unit for the next iteration of the Orc and Goblin Armybook, not my way to make Orcs and Goblins unbeatable.

I am still very much at the concept stage regarding actual rules and points costs and would certainly be interested in any thoughts you might have on the idea. A ward save seems to be standard here, what with it being a symbol of the gods. The rest is just ideas.

Orc and Goblin Warshrine 100-150 points

- 4+ ward save (favour of Gork and Mork)
- Confers a leadership bonus on all greenskin units within 18" of +1 per rank maximum of +3.
- Allows re-rolls of failed animosity tests of units within 12".

I would envisage it being carried by four Orcs or Goblins, perhaps with a variable statline based on the bearers, it would also be possible for a shaman to ride the warshrine in to battle. This is more for looks and fluff than gaming winning reasons, though naturally the shaman would benefit from the ward save; mostly it makes sense and means they don't have to be dumped in a unit somewhere.

I realise that some of these points may grate with people who play against greenskins, so feel free to point out problems though productive comments are better than 'that's stupid'. :)
 

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Personally, I'd pay that much for you to always choose the result (i.e, you may want them to squabble, for whatever reason), rather than re-roll.

Still, the same things as Eye of the Gods would work with Gork and Mork. Instead of giving the unit Stupidity for the rest of the battle, then it could be that they always count as having rolled a 1 for their animosity test - you can't get much more stupid than Orks.

"Hur, Hur, it's a wall... 'Ed Smash."
"er... boss... it worked"



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I'm not too keen on the idea of an orc warshrine. Orcs just seem to me to be more of the angry mob running as fast as possible into the enemy. They'd drop the shrine because it was holding them back. Second, orcs are supposed to be a horde army, so the 12" range won't solve a lot of your problems. I think orcs need two things: a few key point reductions, and make animosity something orcs are happy about.

For example, if the orcs roll a squabble result, they can not move that turn. However if they are charged in the next movement phase, the greenskins surge forward in response, where the orc unit now counts as charging and the charging unit does not. That way you have a pro to go along with the con. Then for a roll of a 6, instead of going forward towards any unit, the unit MUST make a march move, however, they may then after marching make a charge.

Then NGs come at the same cost with spear and shield, reduced cost of netters, reduced cost of both boar boyz, reduce casting costs for spells of the little waagh, the ASF spell in the big waagh grants I10 as well, same goes for the squig hoppers that are supposed to be ASF (needed to counter all the new ASF floating around in newer books) and I think you'd have a start at a more competative O&G book.
 

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What about the Gork 'ed' or whatever it was from the Storm of Chaos? That was a Warshrine equivalent, and I remember a redshirt telling me that he heard rumours at the same time that the Warshrine for Chaos with the army wide effects (or army champion wide) effects were similar to the ideas that were tested for the Orc Monolith in the Storm of Chaos.

Still, all the ASF... you mean VC's and high Elves? What else is there? WoC? A single magic item, but that grants stupidity as well, and on only slightly above average leadership. Dark Elves? A single expensive magic banner, and Assasins, I think? And that only happens if they're revealed.

Not too sure on Empire, but basically, the ASF zombies do jack shit, and Orcs will always outnumber the Elves. It's a shame that other army tactics work that work against ASF (charge with meatshields/hammer units, and then maneuvre your heavy infantry into position, to flank, outnumber, and basically have enough left to hit hard, through numbers, toughness, or armour) work less, due to Animosity.

While we're on the matter of ASF - other than dedicated monster/character killers with it - (Chaos Lord, Hellfire Sword, Helm of Many Eyes, *shudder*) - trolls work extremely well to counter the effects. And what can Elves do against Bolt Throwers? ASF the bolt flying through the air to strike them? And fanatics? oh fanatics, how Elves (and Goblins) hate you. So in a sense, Goblins are better suited than Orcs to taking them down, due to what they have. Of course, it would be even better, should the Bolt Throwers have the elven 'Scatter' shot that they have, but still.



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Have O&G got squiggoths like their 40K equivalent?

If so they would be the perfect mount for an idol of Gork and Mork.

Also considering current things related to the O&G gods shouldn't it affect magic?

Finally what about separate Gork and Mork shrines, or perhaps upgrades. Gork being more fighty than cunnin' would mean chances at multiple general's Waagh, while cunnin' Mork might help magic more.
 

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No, the don't. But you get squiqs... I spy a link ;).

I like the idea of an additional Waagh! though. Perhaps it's like the Cauldron of Blood, if a general starts his turn in B2B contact with the Warshrine, he can use his Waaagh! Again, or allows a re-roll of the distance, or a 2D6, or a 2D6 and choose the highest?

I prefer the last 2, myself, as the first one could lead to Waaagh spam.



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Still, all the ASF... you mean VC's and high Elves? What else is there? WoC? A single magic item, but that grants stupidity as well, and on only slightly above average leadership. Dark Elves? A single expensive magic banner, and Assasins, I think? And that only happens if they're revealed.
You're right, it's not as big a deal as I make it out to be. It's just frustrating to try and put squigs into a take all comers list when two very popular armies are basically immune to them, not to mention having a spell of your own custom lore completely negated. It's more an issue of trying to future proof the damn things.
 

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I know the feeling.

Woohoo I5 Chaos Warriors! WITH 2 ATTACKS!! At Strength 5 with Halberds!!!

Oh, I draw High Elves... Still, are squigs all that effective? They're good AFAIK to hold up charging battle lines if you're predominantly golbins, but Orcs, meanwhile are meant to charge, and holding up one cavalry unit with Space Hoppers with half a brain doesn't seem too much of the point.



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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Still, are squigs all that effective? They're good AFAIK to hold up charging battle lines if you're predominantly golbins, but Orcs, meanwhile are meant to charge, and holding up one cavalry unit with Space Hoppers with half a brain doesn't seem too much of the point.
Squigs of either sort are good for O&G because they are ItP, so you can generally rely on them to do what you told them to, unlike most of the other units.

I am quite interested by your replies so far; I can certainly see your points Othiem regarding the lack of Orciness and alternative solutions. I suppose the reason I like the idea of a model rather than an armywide rule to sort the problem, is that it would still allow for plenty of different builds since the model would be a choice rather than just a rule. Don't get me wrong though, this is just a suggestion born of idle ponderings rather than something I am overly serious about.

I think realistic points costs of basic models like NG spears will need to be looked at along with the animosity rule and magic. I like your suggestion regarding animosity, but I still think it leaves O&G players at a massive disadvantage as an armywide rule, no other army suffers their units refusing to move or moving on their own (bar frenzy and stupidity which are very different things) in quite such a disasterous manner. I think that needs sorting if O&G are ever to be truly competitive. The problem I see with fixing flaws with a magic spell is you cannot guarantee getting the spell or casting it without heads going bang, plus lots of players avoid Waaagh! magic like the plague.

ASF is a problem for all opponents of VC and HE so that is perhaps a red herring, though I suppose that some armies are better placed to cope with it. I think with the Waaagh! miscasts, animosity and the ludicrous fear elves rule O&G are certainly in need of a fair bit of tweaking though.

As for my suggestions for rules for the warshrine, they are very much off the top of my head, I had thought of tablewide bonuses but that seems a bit too good. Perhaps a bonus that decreases with range? Maybe within 12" units have the full leadership bonus and re-rolls of animosity further out perhaps only the re-rolls?
 
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