Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner
1 - 20 of 82 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
454 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I was reading Codex: Space Marines for the 10th time and I noticed I never fully grabbed the notion that there are two SM legions that were erased from existence, namely legion 2 and legion 11. Some of the fluff out there says that these two legions committed such a horrible crime that every record has been erased from the Imperium as punishment for their sins. However I cannot think of any crime greater than joining the Horus Heresy.

This got me thinking, what are the reasons these two legions even exist? Why the official fluffers created them in the first place? What is they did to deserve such a punishment? (did they rape the Emperor's concubines and ate their flesh afterwards?:laugh:)

What do you think/know about these two legions and of course their Primearchs? What did they do? What is the origin of this mystery that has not been resolved yet?

This topic might have just popped-out sometime in the forums, so sorry if this is a re-run of the topic. :biggrin:

Cheers!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
87 Posts
Theories I've heard:

1) Their Primarchs were killed before Empy found 'em.
-Don't like it cause it doesn't explain what happened to the actual legion.

2) Their Primarchs refused Empy's authority when he did find 'em.
-Don't like it cause it doesn't explain what happened to the actual legion.

3) Their Primarchs were found by Empy, and issued their legions. Then they rebelled and were exterminated.
-Don't like it, because there's a bit of fluff somewhere where Dorn looks at their covered statues during the Heresy, and Malcador says something like "Don't even think about it, they're lost to us" which implies that they're not exterminated (if they were gone, what is there to think about?).

4) The Primarchs were found by Empy, issued their legions, went out on the Great Crusade.... and took off, to found their own Empires away from Empy, or have some alternate adventures. I.e., not so much treason, but desertion, potentially over some deep-seated question of ethics or morality or disagreement with his plan for Mankind. Thus, they exist, somewhere, but they are persona non grata to the Imperium.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,353 Posts
I have a theory their entire legion was lost in the warp....
But I think they just did that cause; A: they were board B: they ran out of ideas C: They wanted people to come up with reasons.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,116 Posts
The official line is that they were there for players to use/abuse as they saw fit, a blank page for people to fill in.
The problem was everyone jumped on the bandwagon rather quickly and the concept became a cliche and an excuse for some terrible ideas (female Space Marines etc.)

In fluff terms I've always liked to think that they were removed from Imperial records for something the Emperor did. They were such a complete failure that it proved the Emperor was very far from perfect so he had them wiped out and all information about them destroyed.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
One of them has been filled with the Blood Ravens. All the blood raven fluff follows "don't know their primarch" "strangely large number of psykers in their ranks causing concern/questions over mutation/taint"
What? No, its been hinted to that they may be descendants of the Thousand Sons. Not that they are from one of the two lost legions.

normtheunsavoury has it as for why we have these two missing legions, it was to allow players the chance to come up with their own legion but it got abused and became cliched so generally when you make your own chapter and have them be one of the missing legions, a slew of people come at you against that idea.


An interesting note, in the Heresy series it has been hinted to that some, or even many, of the primarchs actually know of the fate of the two primarchs and their legions. Whataver is supposed to have happened they were all sworn to never speak of it. (In Mechanicum, I believe, Dorn starts to bring it up when speaking with Malcador, only to be chastised and reminded that that topic is taboo even for him and the primarchs.)

Whatever happened, whatever was done that got those records expunged, there is no doubt that it is an unspeakable thing. Something the Emperor never wants brought up again, though not necessarily worse than what happened with Horus. (As the Heresy can be used as a reminder to some that only the Emperor is infallible, if anyone else gives even a little ground they can fall.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
855 Posts
You see, the thing is that the 2nd and the 11th legions were not 'lost' per say... but all information on them has been purged from Imperial records.

All twenty of the primarchs were found and re-united with their legions, forging across the stars in the Great Crusade. At some unknown point... something went wrong and the 2nd & 11th were removed from the memory of the Imperium.

You are thinking of 'The Lightning Tower' Darkreever- Dorn notes that the pillars that would hold their statues had been vacant for quite some time, so whatever occured was a good bit before the Heresy. In 'A Thousand Sons'- Mortarion makes a thinly veiled threat to Magnus on Ullanor that he knew of a 'being like you once before' that had also made use of dark powers. According to Mortarion the Emperor destroyed him (this being) for such evil. The referance is vague but leads one to question if such was the fate of one of the two 'lost' Primarchs at the hands of his Father.
 

·
Grand Lord Munchkin
Joined
·
7,046 Posts
No he is thinking of mechanicus. Its a conversation between him and Malcador.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
855 Posts
Ah, I rightly forgot about that one. I was thinking the point at which Malcador finds Dorn standing in the Investiary where he is noting the statues (or lack there of) there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,189 Posts
Wasn't one legion written off because they deformed so much? I forgot which group they were from but it is possible that they were just a chapter
 

·
Grand Lord Munchkin
Joined
·
7,046 Posts
Are you talking about the souldrinkers?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,189 Posts
no there was another their bones were growing out of their arms and stuff like that
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
I believe that might be the Black Dragons chapter, as they do have bones that extend beyond normal.

They, however, are not one of the two legions; just a 21st founding chapter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,189 Posts
yup thank you that was them...wait...who did they descend from?
 

·
Grand Lord Munchkin
Joined
·
7,046 Posts
Believed to be sals I think.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,189 Posts
jeez they must of really went off the edge xD
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Theres a reason its called the cursed founding; because the fates of the chapters created during that founding were not the most positive.

I mean look at some of those chapters:

Flame Falcons - burst into flames that did not burn them, they were nearly destroyed by the inquisition for this even though it was not their doing.

Lamenters - tricked into fighting alongside the Astra Claws during the Badab War, the red thirst and black rage inherrent in Blood Angel successors was cured in them, but they suffer from extremely bad luck. (No joke that is their downside.)

Fire Hawks - not much to be said, they were stricken by some incurable disease and they are now the Legion of the Damned, doomed to one day become completely extinct.

Black Dragons - those bony protrusions, its not something they did to themselves, but it is rumoured that they encourage it (something that is forbidden in the Imperium.) They are under constant scrutiny because they possibly willingly do something wrong.

Cursed founding, a time of bad things happening to what may have been great chapters.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,189 Posts
so thats where the LotD came from I was wondering where they came from...although I wish they never had a back story...they were just bad ass
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
454 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I'm thinking they did something really bad, to be expunged from all Imperial Records. My thoughts are, they were discovered just like all of their other brothers and given their own legion. After that they did something and were banished.

I do not think they were killed before they were scattered throughout the universe, if so there would be really no reason at all to talk about them, it could have been as if they never existed.

Moreover, the fact that Dorn looks at the columns where their statues should have been implies that he knew there were two other brothers, and maybe knew them personally as well. Malcador also knows exactly why they were banished, which is only a confirmation that both walked among the 18 other Primarchs as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
312 Posts
I read somewhere that a theory is that Sigmar and Belakor of Warhammer fantasy were the two lost Primarchs as the Warhammer fantasy world exists within the eye of terror. Both were said to have fallen from the sky and to have been men of greater stature and physical power. The reason the Emperor never found them, and they were lost, was he wouldn't travel in there. It also makes sense as the Chaos gods are the same in both game sets.

I still think they were left open to encourage people to make their own chapters but that's just a different idea I had read.
 
1 - 20 of 82 Posts
Top