[Warboss Dakka]

Having never been to a GT or any other major tournament, I am curious as to why so many in that scene think orks aren't competative. I've seen and played against lists and people that know the scene well, and I have never been particularly impressed by any "win all meta-game" list that's been thrown at my orks (mech tau based on FOF, IW with pie plates galore, big DC, Seer council, ect.). That's not to say that they weren't good or even great lists but I've not found one that could not be beaten.

My personal experience has told me that Orks are very effective if played by an experienced and competent general (competence is a measure of ability and experience, not an insult). Have so few people played against orks that didn't march themselves into bolter fire? What are people's experience playing with and against orks? Do the tournament players shy away from orks because of a weakness in the list?

I will admit that orks have lost something in the transition to 4th ed (see entanglement primarily along with sweeping advance being nerfed) but have not noticed a big lapse in competativeness of my list where I play. What are your thoughts?

 

[Anphicar]

I have been spanked numerous times by Choptas.

Speedfreaks scare me.

 

[uberschveinen]

They're slightly worse in the sense that almost every melee army became slightly worse. As for why they aren't used in tournaments? THe litle things wrong with the ORkish codex ad up to be a decent-sized problem for the powergamer, and it'd be easier for them to just play Chaos or somesuch.

 

[Wrath of Khaine]

A big reason is Orks are stereo-typed to being a crap army, so alot of people are unnerved about playing as them or have no idea what exactly to do with them tactics-wise. The only time I've ever been spanked, ever, what versus Orks and they damn sure put the fear o' the whip in me. I've been beat only a few times, mainly from mission objectives in which I still had more men, but those Orks destroyed my whole Ultramarine army on their second turn. Soo many choppas and mega-armoured claw attacks right off a sprinting speed freek truck ate me alive before I entered the battle.

But again, unless you know how to play them, which few people do(and the ones who do play other armies that are similar), most think they blow and aren't fit for tourneys and the like.

-Khaine-

 

[Warboss Dakka]

They're slightly worse in the sense that almost every melee army became slightly worse. As for why they aren't used in tournaments? THe litle things wrong with the ORkish codex ad up to be a decent-sized problem for the powergamer, and it'd be easier for them to just play Chaos or somesuch.

What would you describe as the little things that are wrong? There is some outdated wargear (grabba stik for one) but what is it specifically that you find lacking? I can see problems with the army my self but then I see the problems with every army. In other words, is there a sense that the little things wrong with the codex make orks unbalanced when compared with other armies?

I find the typical power gamer army to lack any more tactical thought than grabbing the most of x that you can (x being what they percieve as the best weapon in the army) and hoping that x will win. I actually had a local tournament winner (or so he claimed) tell me that orks were cheesy when he podded three Libbys near my fire line and tried to FotD me off the board only to find out about Ork mob sized checks. Imagine his surprise when the ork mobs with crappy LD 7 assaulted his expensive HQ's and wiped them out in one turn. This anecdote is just to illustrate something I am often confronted with, a typical list that many seem to think is the hot fotm falls when faced with the unexpected.

 

[The Wraithlord]

Not being an Ork player myself this may be entirely wrong or dead nuts. I think the problem with Orks is that the limits of the codex force most Ork players to use pretty much the same list to even be slightly effective. Mind you, Orks done right are brutal enough to put the fear of God into any player but the limits of the dex combined with every new player and their aunt being told they suck leads to less and less people playing them. Which in turn fuels the whole thought that they are crap.

I think Orks and Necrons are roughly in the same boat, that being the severely limited unit options they have. For Necrons, this is just because they have relatively few actual choices, for Orks it is because so many of their units have been nerfed by the lack of codex updates to keep the book in line with the successive version of the game itself.

My thoughts anyway.

 

[Warboss Dakka]

I would have to agree with you that the lack of updates has been hard on orks. At the same time though, if Orks are given a big power boost when (eventually...) their new codex comes out, I think my opponents are going to struggle even more. There is not a whole lot they can do to nerf my army, so I guess I'm pretty safe. While I won't say exactly how well I do, at least not publically, I can assure you that their list, even in its current form, leands itself to victory not defeat. I'm not too certain about ork players having only one effective list. The one I use seems to be far different than many I see played, though most I see played are defeated.

I think their biggest problem is that an Ork list played as a horde of footsloggers (which is what orks are supposed to do) tends to fail miserably. People build footslogging lists, lose with them and then complain that the army is crap. Orks require synergy between units to win and every aspect of your army has to be created and run with little room for error. I would think this aspect of orks would appeal to the tactical community instead of things like pod/ass cannon spam and zomgthreerailheads!

I value everyone's feedback and hope that we can hear from some other warbosses on this subject as well. I can't be the only ork player on here can I?

 

[morfangdakka]

I think the main reason you see few ork armies that are footsloogers is that they take so long to move and then go through a turn of shooting. By the time you get done moving a 100+ models and then go through a turn of shooting it has been around half an hour. So in timed tournements you rarely get past turn three. This I think is why you see speed freaks list but with out a good number of boyz plus all the crappy entanglement rules the Kult of SPeed have a lot lacking. They also are not an easy army to just pick up and start using like Marines.
I use to get laughed at when I would set up my boyz and my opponent would say orks suck or footsloogers are worthless. I even get more ridicual when they don't see a tank or any wheels in my army. In local tournements that are not timed my boyz have stomped many power list which are just one trick ponies usually not set up to handle horde armies. The only one that has beat me is a former ork player that now plays Necrons. That is why most in my group are hapy that I am building a Dark Eldar list. The more balanced list are tougher.

 

[LongBeard]

Warboss, Big Shoota, Choppa
Big Mek, Slugga, Kustom Force Field
4 Kommandoz w/rokkit, Nob w/Tankbusta bomz, rokkitz, 2 ammo runtz
4 Kommandoz w/rokkit, Nob w/Tankbusta bomz, rokkitz, 2 ammo runtz
16 Flash Gitz w/More Dakka, 4 Big Shootaz, Nob w/power klaw, more dakka, shootier
18 Slugga Boyz w/3 rokkitz, Nob w/power klaw, rokkit, 2 ammo runtz
12 Slugga Boyz w/3 rokkitz, Nob w/rokkit, 2 ammo runtz
16 Slugga Boyz w/3 Big Shootaz, Nob w/Big Shoota, Power Klaw
4 Tankbustaz w/3 rokkitz, Nob w/rokkit, 2 attack squigz
4 Tankbustaz w/3 rokkitz, Nob w/rokkit, 2 attack squigz
19 Grotz, Slaver w/squighound, big shoota

Heres a copy of Spiky Davids list that he took to the heats this year, ended up taking an Impressive 2nd place which Is no mean feat considering the competition.
To be honest I've never actually played against Orks, although I'm playing a similar type horde tonight! :shock:
Now that the alimight KOS have generally been banned from the majority of GW tournaments I think horde shooty for Orks Is probably your best bet given the current state of the codex. The fact Is everyone at tournaments builds their lists to face smallish elite armies I.e MEQ equivalents add In the fact that the GT tends to go for heavy shooty lists with counter charge, If you end up facing 100+ Orks with multiple rockits, big shootas, ammo runts and claws similar to the list above people tend to get caught on the back foot due to It being so different from the 'norm'.

 

[the cabbage]

I've played orks both freeks and footsloggers for a few years and I've mentioned a few times on this forum that they are not broken. They are seriously in need of a refresher, but only to change things around not power them up.

I tend to write fluffy lists and therefore my stats don't look good but orks can kick ass.

For fun I run an army of footsloggers based around a large Bossmob with lots of squigs and two meks with KFF. Marching with these are two large mobs of slugga boyz and twenty ard boyz. Then some tankbustaz and jumppacks to help out. This army is unwieldy but sometimes causes an upset especially against infantry marine or chaos armies who just cant get away. The one time this list has come seriously unstuck was against a gaurd player fielding three griffons with promethium rounds.

On the odd occasion I feel competetive I will field a kind of hybrid freeks/sloggers list. Centred around a powerful bossmob an a trukk.

I love playing orks and I think most of my opponents enjoy something new fighting what is after all an iconic 40K army.

One thing interesting which I have noted in Warboss Dakkas list and in a friends list is how effective a shooty ork list can be. Although I prefer CC with orks they are not a one trick pony, in fact last year I was part of the ork team at a compaign weekend in nottingham and all six of our armies were completely different lists.

 

[Warboss Dakka]

I like that guy's list a lot. I would love to read who he faced and how he used it to full effect without help from speed elements, which are something I consider to be of immense strategic importance. I am particularly interested in how he kept those tankbusta mobs alive with so few bodies. Hopefully his performance will be considered proof that orks can do well in the tournament scene when used with care. Of course these types of army lists are just as tilted toward spam as any other tournament list, with emphasis on rokkits for anti-meq goodness.

Cabbage, if you don't mind, I 'd love to have a look at your hybrid list. There are just a few ork rumors floating around, none of which can possibly be validated, but I can't imagine playing with an updated, and possibly MORE powerful list than I am now. We will have cause for rejoiceful slaughter if they do something crazy like give us a rending weapon...

I agree with you Morfang, that timed tournaments can be a hazard to large footslogging armies. Not playing one myself though, I usually get through my turns in 20 min or so and that's because I am a slow SOB when it comes to making tactical decisions.

 

[Antioch]

I fear Grots more than any other unit in 40k I really do.

Having had a main opponent play Orks for a long time, I can safely say they have the potential to be the nastiest thing going.

People say Orks suck because all they look at is the statlines. Yes. Ork statlines aren't much to write home about, but when you've got 20 crappy statlines, it tends to not matter anymore.

There are some downright nasty things you can do with an Ork list. Speedfreeks is one. An obscene amount of flashgitz is another. Meks galore. It's the little things that add up and make them incredibly powerful. There's a reason why they're called the Green Tide.

 

[the cabbage]

I'll try to post a list this weekend when I get home but it essentially mobs of slugga boyz supported by a boss mob in a trukk and trukk boyz.

 

[morfangdakka]

I like that guy's list a lot. I would love to read who he faced and how he used it to full effect without help from speed elements, which are something I consider to be of immense strategic importance. I am particularly interested in how he kept those tankbusta mobs alive with so few bodies. Hopefully his performance will be considered proof that orks can do well in the tournament scene when used with care. Of course these types of army lists are just as tilted toward spam as any other tournament list, with emphasis on rokkits for anti-meq goodness.

Cabbage, if you don't mind, I 'd love to have a look at your hybrid list. There are just a few ork rumors floating around, none of which can possibly be validated, but I can't imagine playing with an updated, and possibly MORE powerful list than I am now. We will have cause for rejoiceful slaughter if they do something crazy like give us a rending weapon...

I agree with you Morfang, that timed tournaments can be a hazard to large footslogging armies. Not playing one myself though, I usually get through my turns in 20 min or so and that's because I am a slow SOB when it comes to making tactical decisions.

I have only seen Spikey Dave's battle reports on the DAkkaDAkka Forum and from what I read he mostly faced MEQ armies. I used his list against a friend and with all the missles flying everywhere it is a interesting army to use.

I would also like to see the hybrid list since I have never had any success with a hybrid list. My list have to all be fast or all be slow. Probably because I'm a slow SOB when it comes to making tactical decisions as well. That is why I hate timed tournements.

 

[LongBeard]

As far as I know Anathema from these boards faced Spiky at the GT heats and apparently he's a really good player, perhaps Anathema might give some Info regarding his general tactics? :wink:

I fear Grots more than any other unit in 40k I really do.

I faced a somewhat similar list to the above one and the grots really are a pain In the ass, If your struggling for cover there going to save you big time, top unit. Also definatley recommend ammo grunts, responsible for two of my preds going down turn 5!
I ended up playing recon at escalation with my BA list:
http://heresy-online.net/viewtopic.php?t=267
He set up fairly central with my las plas on my left flank, for the first two turns he took the bait chasing the static marines, but once my reserves came on I pulled back my marines to safety and went hard on the opposite flank staying at range forcing him to split and chase my vehicles, luckilly given my speed, BS4, and multiple fury hits I manage to dwindle his numbers down enough to counter charge with my DC around turn 5 to stop his advance and win the game by about 950+ VP's. Overall I think with the type of list above If castled up with that much firepower, numbers, ammo grunts and good use of cover I think your on to a winner!

 

[Antioch]

Seriously, though, Grots are quite possibly the most versatile units in 40k. They just don't really have that much reliable staying power. That's the thing with Orks, there's not a whole lot that's reliable.

The guy who played orks over here used them in like an arc shape advancing as a first wave, with his boyz behind them. This does a multitude of things:

-Target Priority
-The Grot difficult terrain rule
-The real CC powerhouses (boyz) can charge an already debilitated squad tied down by so many grots.

It's the Ripper principle, except the Grots are more squishy.

 

[LongBeard]

-The Grot difficult terrain rule

Just out of curiosity what does that rule do exactly? :?
The guy I was playing had his grots In terrain turn 1 and due to bad terrain dice they ended up preventing the mob from advancing at full speed.

 

[Warboss Dakka]

-The Grot difficult terrain rule

Just out of curiosity what does that rule do exactly? :?
The guy I was playing had his grots In terrain turn 1 and due to bad terrain dice they ended up preventing the mob from advancing at full speed.

\

Any mob of boyz who aren't in mega armor may reroll their movement through rough terrain if there are grots in the same terrain. This makes grots practically mandatory in cityfight, especially if you can get a huge mob of them into several pieces of terrain you plan on moving your boyz through. I've seen many a 2 inch move become a 5 or 6 with that reroll. This only counts for actual mobs of grots though, no reroll for ammu runts or other grot wargear.

I also agree wholeheartedly that grots are a great unit. The only reason I don't take them is, well, I'm not sure what I'd give up to have some. I know what everything in my army does and have refined it to a sharp point. I may add some in just to have a new experience.

 

[Antioch]

This is straight off the top of my head, so it might not be completely accurate. Anyway, if there are Grots in front of another Ork unit and in difficult terrain, the other Ork unit can choose to move over the Grots as if they were say, planks of wood. Rules wise, this means that the Orks get to reroll their Difficult terrain check.

 

[LongBeard]

Cheers guys, I'll have to remind my mate about that one next time I see him.