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Discussion Starter #1
Right; it seems to me that the War of the Horus Heresy was begun by the Emperor when he ordered the Space Wolves to attack the Thousand Sons.

The question is this; from their understanding of the background, who things it was INEVITABLE that the Thousand Sons were right about Horus, and who thinks it was merely POSSIBLE?

Of course, like many good seeing into the future things, it was the seeing that caused it to happen... so another way of looking at it is, if the Thousand Sons hadn't told the Emperor, would Horus have rebelled?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I'm not going to disagree, as I have no evidence one way or the other.

But it is at least plausible, that, given my understanding of the fluff at least:

1 Thousand Sons, doing what they should not wot of, etc, see a possible future where Horus rebels;
2 Thousand Sons tell Emperor Horus will rebel;
3 Emperor orders Space Wolves to destroy Thosand Sons to remove taint of Chaos, but does not order strike against Horus;
4 Horus realises, Blimey, this Emperor's a paranoid nutcase, I bet I'm next;
5 Horus rebels, thus bringing about the future the Thousand Sons forsaw.

Thus, without the intervening stages, there is no 'necessity' for Horus to rebel.

As I say, I can't exactly back this up particularly well as I don't know the fluff well enough, but it seems a possibility from what I do know.
 

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Porn King!!!
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I dunno about that. From reading those books, the one primarily responsible for the Heresy is the Word Bearer chaplin Erebus. He is the one who steals the chaos sword which sets off the war with the Technocrasy that Horus truly wanted to bring into the Imperium bloodlessly. When Horus is wounded, he is the one that arranges for Horus to be 'healed' in a manner that weakens Horus to the call of the Ruinous Powers. It was also Erebus who initiated the lodges within the Legions which is where the Traitor Marines met in secret and hidden from their loyalist brethren. Hell, before Horus had fully turned to chaos, Erebus had tattoos of daemonic script on his head that brought a Flamer of Tzeentch into the universe when someone else just read a copy of them.

The Emperor sending the Wolves after the Sons certainly didn't help the cause of the Imperium at all as Horus was able to use it as a rallying point for the Primarchs who were also bitter that the Emperor left them to go back to Earth. But I don't think that was that start of the Heresy. It had already begun, if quietly, long before that. That was just the first visible aspect of it.
 

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i tihnk that if the emperor hadnt made a gigantic deal of this and first listened to what poor magnus was saying, the thousand sons would be part of the loyalist forces, thus aiding in mankinds' defense in the Heresy. The thousand sons are by far the least "bad" chaos force. Of course, like someone forced to do drugs, after the initial fealty to Tzeentch, one thing led to another and the Thousand Sons' criminal record grew and grew, not to mention they had sworn fealty to Tzeentch in the first place, and thats why they're being hunted down. My answer is INEVITABLE, Horus was already going to be corrupted by Lorgar's high chaplain or smth or other. And if that didnt work, the word bearers would start the heresy themselves. The Heresy was inevitable. Whether the Emperor might have survived to a larger extent if he had not made such a big deal of thing is possible.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hmm, the Word Bearers... that's another thing...

Right, thanks, I didn't know anything about Erebus; that's what comes of basing my fluff on books from 2nd ed, I suppose, and not really reading much BL stuff.

Thinks, maybe I should read those Heresy-age novels... :roll: :)
 

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Jac "Baneblade" O'Bite
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Yes you defiantly should, the second one is a little slow but the others are great.

As for the answer to the original fluff my answer would be yes, the seeds were there right from the start, it was only a matter of time until he went rogue, the Emperor really shouldn't have left him to his own devices and gone on holiday.

Couple of points left out of your understanding of the fluff (which have now been revealed the HH Books) -

1 & 2 are fine
3. The Emperor didn't tell the Space Wolves to destroy the 1k Sons, he told them to bring them to face a inquiry, Horus then contacted Russ and told him to destroy Magnus and his boys. Russ didn't know that Horus was going rogue so followed his orders like a good little doggy.
4. Horus was already corrupted
5. Horus was already planning it

All that is covered in the books though.
 

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i got all the books on order. should get the first one tomoz WOO HOO....
 

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The Traveler
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I always wondered if the Heresy would have turned out different if The Emperor didn't think Magnus was a lunatic about his prophecies. Like he called back the Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and the now-loyal Thousand Sons to fight Horus on Istvaan V, with the Raven Guard and the Iron Hands.
 

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fight Horus on Istvaan V, with the Raven Guard and the Iron Hands.
And the salamanders ;)

Hmm, it may have turned out differently. But at the end of the day, the legions at the dropsite massacre would have been the same, they were the only ones in range.

Plus, they were angry and rash at the betrayal. Horus played them easier than a recorder.
 

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You're wrong. Horus is the primach for the luna wolves, who lured loyal SMs into a trap on a planet which i can't spell so won't try. Then it all went boom. Read the rule book people!
 
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